RMAF 2013: Gear worth making the trip to Denver to hear... And not!

[Steve williams]

what really interested me was that Luke Manley and Nick were both using Alexia speakers and the sound in both rooms was totally different. I really enjoyed Luke's room last year with essentially the same components and I still do but in Nick's room there was a warmth and charm to the music that was sorely absent in Luke's VTL/Alexia room.Different flavors if you will and for my ears Nick's room lit up my ears and I couldn't stop coming back to that room many times each day to convince me what I heard previously was indeed just that wonderful.

Now having said that when I heard the XLF/twin Thor/VTL room at the Hyatt (in a room that was probably 6-8 times the size of Nick's room) where the width between the speakers and the distance to the listening position was probably 2-3 times greater (at least) than in either Nick or Luke's rooms, I and Carl (cjfrbw) immediately went back to the Marriott to relisten to Nick's room and as wonderful as it was it just lacked that big Wilson sound that so many of us crave. Also as I stated Nick's room was a much warmer sound whereas that in the Wilson room was very neutral (at least that's how I heard it) and again the bass from the twin Thor subs was as good as I have ever heard. Nick and Luke's rooms however lacked that big Wilson sound.

Mep commented that he felt the imaging of the singer's voice was too high making for an unnaturally large image. I didn't hear any vocals in the session I attended so I can't comment. I can say with absolute authority (I own the X2's) that if the set up is precisely tuned in all upper speaker modules that imaging as this does not occur.
This very topic was being discussed here many months ago and many members thought the same so I invited Andre Marc (member and reviewer here) to come up from San Diego to listen but specifically for imaging.

Here are his comments specific to that......

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...-Chez-Williams&p=193522&viewfull=1#post193522

 

[mep]

Steve-I don't think it's a fair comparison between the top of the line XLF/twin Thor setup and the much smaller Wilson Alexia speakers. You can't expect to get that "BIG" Wilson sound out of just a pair of Alexia speakers. Now maybe if you had them partnered with the Thor subs it would have leveled the playing field slightly. You are comparing a $250k+ speaker system against a pair of $39k speakers. The other thing is that there were no subwoofers in use in the Paragon/Doshi room. All you were hearing were the Alexia speakers. Even at home with your big Wilson speakers, you are using a pair of subs. I have no doubts that using some subs with the Alexia speakers would go a long way towards giving you more of the "BIG" sound. That's what good subs do.

 

[Steve williams]

Mark I agree completely wrt the use of subs however even if those twin Thor subs weren't thereof the music IMO the large scale and range is still there.

FWIW Mark I and others here who have heard my system feel subs are unnecessary in the room

 

[microstrip]

(...) Mep commented that he felt the imaging of the singer's voice was too high making for an unnaturally large image. I didn't hear any vocals in the session I attended so I can't comment. I can say with absolute authority (I own the X2's) that if the set up is precisely tuned in all upper speaker modules that imaging as this does not occur. (...)

If it was a single audition, not a general finding with voices, it can be due to the recording it self. Gary Koh has a nice explanation about bizarre things that can happen to voice position in recordings in his excellent manual of the Genesis 1.2 - this reading should be mandatory even for those who do not own Genesis speakers.

http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/ownersmanuals/G1.2_Owners_Manual_v1.pdf

Setup can also be an issue - when you optimize a room for a very large audience some places can suffer due to boundary reflections, mainly with very large speakers.

 

[mep]

One thing is for sure-I'm not going to pass judgment on the imaging qualities of the big Wilson speakers until I can hear them in someone's listening room and not a grand ballroom. The Wilson demo was setup to give you a larger than life perspective. You had a huge room, huge speakers that were set very far apart, and a pair of massive subs behind them. This type of setup can give you 10' tall singers and grand pianos that are 30' wide. What was amazing is the quality of the original recordings made on Dave's Ultra Master recorder and the brilliant DSD transfers done by Bruce. Peter McGrath called Bruce Brown one of the best mastering engineers when he gave Bruce credit for the DSD transfers during one of the demos I attended.

 

[Steve williams]

Having heard Bruce's work in many formats that comment indeed holds true to my ears

 

[microstrip]

Mark I agree completely wrt the use of subs however even if those twin Thor subs weren't thereof the music IMO the large scale and range is still there.

FWIW Mark I and others here who have heard my system feel subs are unnecessary in the room

Steve,

Most people believe in the magic of subwoofers and prefer to ignore the physics and that usually speaker manufacturers of large speakers know a lot about bass reproduction.

Most very large speakers, such as yours, are reasonably flat to 15-20 Hz in the free field - usually it is the interaction with the room that spoils the bass. Unless you are looking for extreme sub-bass or very loud bass levels most of the time the subs are just cancelling the "bad" effect of the room and placement. For normal stereo reproduction, good listener and speaker positioning, together with a great room, that should absorb the excess of bass at critical frequencies, can be better than filling the room with subs. Surely all IMHO and YMMV.

 

[Steve williams]

Steve,

Most people believe in the magic of subwoofers and prefer to ignore the physics and that usually speaker manufacturers of large speakers know a lot about bass reproduction.

Most very large speakers, such as yours, are reasonably flat to 15-20 Hz in the free field - usually it is the interaction with the room that spoils the bass. Unless you are looking for extreme sub-bass or very loud bass levels most of the time the subs are just cancelling the "bad" effect of the room and placement. For normal stereo reproduction, good listener and speaker positioning, together with a great room, that should absorb the excess of bass at critical frequencies, can be better than filling the room with subs. Surely all IMHO and YMMV.

True indeed Francisco

You need to put the date of next year's RMAF on your calendar and take a flight across the pond and spend some time here with all of us. I saw people at the show (not exhibitors) from as far away as New Zealand and Asia

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

True indeed Francisco

You need to put the date of next year's RMAF on your calendar and take a flight across the pond and spend some time here with all of us. I saw people at the show (not exhibitors) from as far away as New Zealand and Asia

Wow! Would you say then that this might be the Show of Shows for audiophiles?

 

[Steve williams]

Over the 10 years of RMAF it has grown to be IMO one of the very best audio shows if they can only figure a better way for registration

 

[rbbert]

...For normal stereo reproduction, good listener and speaker positioning, together with a great room, that should absorb the excess of bass at critical frequencies, can be better than filling the room with subs. Surely all IMHO and YMMV.

Except that in most listening rooms, optimizing listener and speaker positioning for good low bass usually means the mid-bass suffers, and almost always means the imaging suffers. As you say, just the physics.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Over the 10 years of RMAF it has grown to be IMO one of the very best audio shows if they can only figure a better way for registration

That would be helpful no doubt. How many attendees did they get?

 

[Steve williams]

I honestly have no idea John as some people came for either 1, 2 or 3 day passes

I must say that unlike other meetings there was no security preventing non badge carrying people from riding the elevators and catching the show gratis

 

[Steve williams]

One thing I missed and wanted to hear was a live performance on Sat AM featuring Doug MacLeod

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

I honestly have no idea John as some people came for either 1, 2 or 3 day passes

I must say that unlike other meetings there was no security preventing non badge carrying people from riding the elevators and catching the show gratis

I've witnessed the same at the Toronto and Montreal Shows, and I suppose even with security that might be hard to control. Anyway, it sounds like a great show and maybe one day I can attend. That would be nice!

 

[audioarcher]

It was magnificent Bruce.

The Doshi room contrary to a solitary isolated opinion remains IMO absolutely magnificent.

I agree Steve. My favorite room. I spent at least an hour there on Sunday.

 

[KeithR]

what really interested me was that Luke Manley and Nick were both using Alexia speakers and the sound in both rooms was totally different. I really enjoyed Luke's room last year with essentially the same components and I still do but in Nick's room there was a warmth and charm to the music that was sorely absent in Luke's VTL/Alexia room.Different flavors if you will and for my ears Nick's room lit up my ears and I couldn't stop coming back to that room many times each day to convince me what I heard previously was indeed just that wonderful.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...-Chez-Williams&p=193522&viewfull=1#post193522

Well, simply put- Nick uses EL34s- not surprised at all it's warmer than other rooms including Luke's 6550 based amps.

I'm also not surprised that someone didn't prefer the sound (like caesar). EL34s are polarizing. I personally think they can be too warm, though Siemens NOS really aren't terribly warm. Not sure what tubes Nick was using.

 

[mep]

Nick did not use EL-34s in the amps used at RMAF. They were KT-120 tubes I do believe. These are the 160 watt monoblocks and not his smaller EL-34 based amps.

 

[KeithR]

Nick did not use EL-34s in the amps used at RMAF. They were KT-120 tubes I do believe. These are the 160 watt monoblocks and not his smaller EL-34 based amps.

Interesting. I've never had a KT120 amp in my house, so tough to speculate. I've only heard them at shows on Audio Research amps, which wasn't my kinda of sound but under show conditions.

 

[mbovaird]

Caesar - thanks for the write up. I attended all three days as well. I went to every room at least once and several many times. To me the XLF demo was incredible. It was so good, that I can't even consider it when discussing the other rooms. To me, it was on another planet. As for being musical, when they played Take the A Train, I thought I was back in the band again (I played lead alto sax in a 30 piece big band for many years). I closed my eyes, and I could imagine I was back there again.

As for the Alexia's/VTL demo - it was not good (and I'm holding back my tongue here). I was the first person to listen on day one. I raced for the room at 11:55am because that combo was one of the reasons I went to RMAF. At 12pm exactly, I knocked on the door and Bea rather rudely told me to go away and slammed the door in my face. So, I waited. About 10 minutes later someone else came along, knocked on the door and she finally let us in. First impressions were downright awful. The sound was thin, bright and just nasty sounding. After listening to some poorly recorded classical record, she agreed to put on my CD, as she turned it up, pop! The amp shut down. The tool box came out and I left.

Thinking the terrible sound must have been related to an equipment failure, I returned to the room a few hours later. I sat and listened, and it sounded worse. I was scratching my head. Over the three days I returned many times. Every time I walked in they were playing classical music. Let's just say, I more than had my fill of classical musical. At the request of many of us in the room, they finally agreeing to put on Natalie Merchand (or anything but classical). Speaking with others around me, we all had heard the Alexia's sound much better in the Doshi room - or at demos elsewhere. The best the Alexia's sounded was the two times I've heard them on D'Agostino (once in Miami and once in Dallas). But I digress.....

I sat at the bar with a fellow who told me "I was all set to buy the Alexia's, but after hearing them in the VTL room, I'm seriously doubtful now." I reassured him it was a combination of a mismatch of gear and the room and and and....he was reassured by how good they sounded in the Doshi/Paragon room and told him he must hear them with D'Agostino gear.

For me, the highlights were XLF demo (obviously), meeting Steve Williams and many of the WBF gang, the Alexia's with Doshi, the Kronos table, the new Sony DSD thingy and a few others. I thought those Emerald Physics speakers were crazy good for the money. And of course, the MBL room. Always a blast.

Overall, it was a fun three days.