Rolling in tubes, who's doing it and if not, why not?

[JackD201]

Jack, would you agree that in most instances rolled in tubes are better sounding than the manufacturer's own tube choice?
When I had a conversation with Ken Stevens about this a few months back, he was very sure that the tubes that his Co. picks for his gear are the best option available. I disagreed with him, but he was having none of it.
My CAT has benefitted greatly by the tubes I have rolled in so far, and i suspect that when i replace the stock line level tubes, I will see a benefit as well. Like you said it is a fun thing to do, and in my experience a very beneficial exercise as well

I wouldn't say so given the array of substitution tube choices Davey. There really are some dogs out there. The gear is voiced using their choices so I assume it's what sounds best to them. We can always try something else and switch back if we agree or stay with other combinations if we don't. I guess that's what I love about it. It's easy and reversible.

 

[jadis]

We can always try something else and switch back if we agree or stay with other combinations if we don't. I guess that's what I love about it. It's easy and reversible.

Absolutely, Jack. My sentiments too. Far easier than cart, cable, amp, or (gasp) speaker rolling. If you get the hang of it, 1 minute is tops in the unplugging and plugging the new tube. And, in those days, it was relatively cheap, $50 tops for Teles. Today, it can run to 4 figures.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Agree with you Myles, however, IMO, a tube catastrophe can occur with any tube upon insertion, even brand new and from a reputable dealer. I think that is just the risk one takes as an owner of tube gear. As I said in an earlier post, a few years back, I inserted a new quad matched set of Chinese 6550's into my Melos amp only to see flames and flash upon turn-on Luckily, I pulled the plug fast enough and the amp didn't suffer any real damage, BUT my heartbeat sure spiked

OTOH, I suspect that a catastrophic failure is far more likely if you are rolling in power tubes than driver tubes

Yeah those Chinese tubes were awful. And if they didn't blow up initially, they usually lasted all of three months before going cherry red.

I still think the question is reliabilty; leading co's such as cj, ARC, VAC, etc. really want to shed the unreliable image so they can gain greater penetration into the market. That's why these tube manufacturers go to greater lengths testing the tubes (controlled burn-in and actual testing in circuit rather than just sorting with a tube tester) and will charge more than say Tube Depot, etc.

 

[MylesBAstor]

I wouldn't say so given the array of substitution tube choices Davey. There really are some dogs out there. The gear is voiced using their choices so I assume it's what sounds best to them. We can always try something else and switch back if we agree or stay with other combinations if we don't. I guess that's what I love about it. It's easy and reversible.

And don't you love the few that put their tubes on the outside of the unit, rather than having to remove a cover, that makes substitution even easier?

 

[jadis]

And don't you love the few that put their tubes on the outside of the unit, rather than having to remove a cover, that makes substitution even easier?

I love those that do, like my present ARC VS115, but unfortunately, their choice of the super tube 6H30 leave nothing to be rolled, no NOS of these stuffs. On my Jadis JPL line, it was a pain to remove the grill each time I tube roll and then having to put them back, and the line stage is even inside a rack making maneuverability a big pain. What I had done the past decade was to 'permanently' remove the grill cover, same goes for my ARC phono 3, no top cover.

 

[Peter Breuninger]

My 2 cent's...

Unless you're overly compulsive, tube rolling is fraught with pitfalls as Myles correctly points out. I recommend readers stick with current production tubes. I just swapped some low hour NOS Mullard 6BQ5s in a vintage integrated for a set of 2010 EH’s. The EH’s smoked the Mullards. Better bass, better soundstage depth, better instrument focus. The Mullards were frankly way too midrangy. But then, in another amp, as drivers, the same exact EHs kept craping out and a set of NOS did the trick.

If you are going for more midrange tone, then give NOS a try. If you are a plug it in and play it and forget about it guy, at all cost avoid NOS.

 

[DaveyF]

My 2 cent's...

Unless you're overly compulsive, tube rolling is fraught with pitfalls as Myles correctly points out. I recommend readers stick with current production tubes. I just swapped some low hour NOS Mullard 6BQ5s in a vintage integrated for a set of 2010 EH’s. The EH’s smoked the Mullards. Better bass, better soundstage depth, better instrument focus. The Mullards were frankly way too midrangy. But then, in another amp, as drivers, the same exact EHs kept craping out and a set of NOS did the trick.



If you are going for more midrange tone, then give NOS a try. If you are a plug it in and play it and forget about it guy, at all cost avoid NOS.

That's the first time I have heard anyone say "EH's smoked Mullards"

Clearly your results with tube rolling haven't been that favorable, OTOH, I have to wander what vintage integrated you were rolling into Most of the vintage integrated's that I have heard were way too midrangy and their soundstage depth and focus was never their strong point..... Frankly, most of the vintage integrated pieces I have heard over the years had no soundstage depth to begin with


Without doubt, rolling tubes is a little bit hit and miss BUT when you get it right, the results can be spectacular. IMHO, if you are buying NOS tubes or vintage tubes off the web from an unknown supplier, then you are probably asking for trouble--OTOH, if you are Buying tubes from the better known and reputable dealers, then i see no reason not to attempt tube rolling. My experience over many many years as a 'phile is that tube rolling is a great way to maximize your sound and in many instances can bring your tube component to a much higher level....all at a reasonable price.

 

[mullard88]

I'm not a serial tube roller but I would go through the process if I ever acquire a tube component. Jadis and other audiofools here proved to me that there are synergies between tubes and circuities and capacitors. In my own experience, replacing all the tubes in my stock audio research SP 3 to telefunken military grade 12AX7 rockets the performance level beyond my wildest expectations; also, changing the tubes in the Lamm M 1.1 and M1.2 to Mullards easily improves the sonics. The downside here is the ridiculously high costs of these premum tubes.

 

[JackD201]

And don't you love the few that put their tubes on the outside of the unit, rather than having to remove a cover, that makes substitution even easier?

You bet! I have to admit tube cages sure are useful when you've got kids and pets around

 

[jadis]

You bet! I have to admit tube cages sure are useful when you've got kids and pets around

Jack, I told my 2 babies back then that those 20 pcs of hot reddish 6550s of my JA 200s were gonna burn their baby butts when they get near those un-grilled amps. Since then, they had never wanted to get nearer than 8 feet of them amps. Haha. And fortunately, I never had cats nor pets.

 

[jadis]

In my own experience, replacing all the tubes in my stock audio research SP 3 to telefunken military grade 12AX7 rockets the performance level beyond my wildest expectations;

Mullard,

Those are the ECC803s, they really up the performance of tube gears that I have heard them on.

 

[mullard88]

Hi Jadis,

Thanks for telling me their names. I am not knowledgeable in the different kinds of tubes.

 

[jadis]

Hi Jadis,

Thanks for telling me their names. I am not knowledgeable in the different kinds of tubes.

You're welcome, Mullard.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Tube rolling can change the sound of a system in an effective way, but sometimes in a very negative way. One day I want listening to a friend system, and it sounded horrible and grainy. I have listened to it many times, so I immediately asked - what is the problem? The only problem was some expensive 12AX7 Telefunken that he bought from eBay and were just relabeled tubes. Once the Mullards came to the system everything become smooth again.

I have three sets of 12AT7 for my VTLs input position - Mullard, Telefunken and Siemens. The differences are easily noticed.

Dear Francisco, How would you describe these differences?

 

[Fidach Lad]

Some tube rolling will get you nowhere. How much a different tube in all but one position (output) will influence the sound depends on the circuit. Choose wisely.

 

[DaveyF]

I have been rolling a lot of tubes recently..including Telefunkens, Siemens, RCA’s and Mullards. It really still amazes me as to the various differences that one can get with the various tubes. The Siemens that i first rolled into my amps and then my preamp were an interesting and eye opening tube compared to the Mullards. A sense of greater precision of instrumental timbre and positioning on the stage was the first think that was evident. However, replacing the Siemens in the amps with Hammond branded RCA cleartops was a nice step up. The RCA cleartops are known for their top end, and boy are these extended in that manner.
The Telefunken rib plates that I briefly also listened to in my preamp give you more musicality than any other tube I have tried. Tube rolling is such a big plus with the best tube gear that I would say it is almost mandatory.

 

[jadis]

I have been rolling a lot of tubes recently..including Telefunkens, Siemens, RCA’s and Mullards. It really still amazes me as to the various differences that can get with the various tubes. The Siemens that i first rolled into my amps and then my preamp were an interesting and eye opening tube compared to the Mullards. A sense of greater precision of instrumental timbre and positioning on the stage was the first think that was evident. However, replacing the Siemens in the amps with Hammond branded RCA cleartops was a nice step up. The RCA cleartops are known for their top end, and boy are these extended in that manner.
The Telefunken rib plates that I briefly also listened to in my preamp give you more musicality than any other tube I have tried. Tube rolling is such a big plus with the best tube gear that I would say it is almost mandatory.

I agree. I've rolled tubes in my line and phono stages for the longest time.