Ron’s New System

[PeterA]

Without digging back into your thread Peter. Did you measure your room. Before and after you changed systems.
Does the horn measure better?

Rex, I don’t have the equipment to do so. A friend of mine came years ago and measured by room when I had my old Magico minis. I posted those measurements in my sublime sound thread. I can’t remember if we used pink noise from a digital file or from an LP. I suspect they would show different results.

One of the problems with system threads is if they get long and veer off topic frequently, it’s very difficult to go back and find anything that’s relevant to the actual system.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Agree. I do wonder about the 1/4" x 7.5 IPS.

it has potential to be awesome. but at best a wash with good vinyl. mostly good vinyl beats it.

but it all depends on what provenance the 1/4" 7.5 ips tape is. i've heard great sound from 1/4" 7.5ips where it's the original, or a very low gen 1:1 real time copy. but commercial versions are all over the board. vinyl is a better bet.

if your vinyl is just ok, then yes, it's a viable alternative. 1/4" 7.5 ips is a serious format and is way better than 1/4" 3.75 ips 4 track for sure.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Rex, I don’t have the equipment to do so.

This is a "red herring."

At the basic level all you need is your iPhone with internal mic (the videos of audio recordings from which you are happy with), and the $4.99 RTA Real Time Analyzer which you download onto your iPhone from the Apple app store.

So in approximately 1 minute, and for exactly $4.99, you can have the "equipment to do so."

You are interested in the frequency response measurements of my system, which I appreciate. Why aren't you interested in the frequency response measurements of your own system?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Subjective hobby yet you are addicted to frequency response charts

I am as much a subjectivist as anybody in this hobby. But may I just suggest, and I am not breaking my arm patting myself on the back, that sometimes it is good not to be dogmatic.

Mechanical problems have mechanical solutions, and frequency response anomalies are, sort of, mechanical problems. When I heard subjectively frequency response anomalies it made all the sense in the world to me to try to measure them objectively, and then to use subsequent objective measurements to assess progress towards amelioration of the anomalies.

 

[Gregadd]

It's always good to not be dogmatic.

 

[PeterA]

This is a "red herring."

At the basic level all you need is your iPhone with internal mic (the videos of audio recordings from which you are happy with), and the $4.99 RTA Real Time Analyzer which you download onto your iPhone from the Apple app store.

So in approximately 1 minute, and for exactly $4.99, you can have the "equipment to do so."

You are interested in the frequency response measurements of my system, which I appreciate. Why aren't you interested in the frequency response measurements of your own system?

I do not know about a red herring. Rex asked me a simple question. I should have just said "No, I do not have such measurements of my room." and left it at that not mentioning gear. You have wanted me to measure for months now. Wynona Ryder is famous for saying, "It is nice to want".

I am not really that interested in your FR measurements. I am more interested in the sound from the videos. That I can hear. Yes, measurements do show objectively what is happening. The lack of correlation between your measurements and your videos, to me is somewhat curious. There was a lot of discussion and I was surprised at the sharp HF rolloff, much lower that I would have guessed from the videos. I am curious to see if the measurements change and how with your new treatments. I hear a difference in the videos.

I do not really know why I am not interested in the measurements of my system. I like the sound as it is, and I would rather just listen to music and optimize the set up based on listening. Unlike your big flexible room, my room does not offer much possibilities when it comes to audiophile acoustic room treatments. I had them and learned how they changed the sound. At some point, I might get around to making measurements. Who knows?

I am curious to know why you seem so interested in my room measurements. Do you encourage Micro, Keith, and Al, or Madfloyd to measure their rooms? You have told me that you think my system has that "center of gravity", between 100-1K that you covet and believe is where the music is.

 

[microstrip]

The closet I've come to tape is cassettes, so no real familiarity -- heh.

Nothing in common with tape, except basic electromagnetism ... The great frequency response charts of top cassettes only tell half of the story.

My sense is that good tape of top performances is expensive and hard to come by.

Yes. At current rates expect to pay up to $300-500 for a recording using two reels.

Experts are required to maintain players.

If you pick the proper, well designed machine, a competent technician with the adequate instruments is enough. However, some machines are tricky and need people with expertise and access to custom proprietary information.

Tape itself is fragile.

Good tape used by professionals is intrinsically robust. However some machines handle it poorly, either at playback or in fast winding rewinding. We should get a constant tension machine with soft start of the fast modes.

Tape copies are like unremastered reissues.

Buying occasional tape copies from unknown sources is like buying illicit substances - you have to trust the dealer. If we want certified products we buy in the pharmacy.

 

[microstrip]

The cost of a good tape machine is $8k to $10k. That is by no means the best. But its a fully reconditioned Otari or Tascam with a good direct head outboard preamp. Go ahead and dump $30k if you want. But I have $6k in and definatly hear what its all about.

You can get it much cheaper. If the standard electronics of the machine was good enough to feed the amplifiers of the vinyl cutting heads used to make the top recordings why do we need an outboard preamplifier?

Generally, a tape copt that is darn good is around $180 a reel or $360 an album. Then there all the mainstream production tapes that are more or less.

What tape heads don't talk a lot about, as Lucy from A Charlie Brown Christmas says "Real Estate". Tape machines are big. They take up a lot of space. And they are a pain in the @&& to run. You have to load the deck, rewind the tape, reload the tape after it rewound, then play it all the way through. Don't stop unless your between tracks and need to pee. You don't want to stretch the tape with stop and start.

yes, but audiophiles are supposed to enjoy these rituals. And again, the choice of an adequate machine will solve some of the points you raise.

I hear tape is good for about 200 plays. Then the highs start to roll off. Now you want a second deck to dub your favorites. But, owe wait. Dubbing is not playing. Record electronics cost significantly more than playback. You may have to buy a $30k machine to be able to dub your favorite tapes.

You are touching a key point. Tape machines need care - we should clean the heads and demagnetize the heads and tape path. Doing it the wrong way can magnetize the machine and make tapes sound dull forever. It is why my tapes only play in my machines.

I doubt that I have played a recording for more than 100 times - too much good music to be listened!

Disclaimer - no rational argument can survive the moment we press the play key of a Studer A80, listen the muffled thump of the heavy capstan and the reels start moving at uniform speed instantaneously with clock precison ...

 

[Argonaut]

Disclaimer - no rational argument can survive the moment we press the play key of a Studer A80, listen the muffled thump of the heavy capstan and the reels start moving at uniform speed instantaneously with clock precison .

 

[findog]

I picked up a Akai 4000ds from a friend who was cleaning out his parent’s house. Hadn’t been played in years. Cleaned it up, changed the belt and motor for less than one hundred. He had one tape: Politely Percussive by Dick Schory’s Percussion Pops Orchestra. Every time I play it for guests they are in awe. For just $500 on the used market you can pick one up and get a taste of tape‘s seductive qualities. I have acquired only about 20 vintage tapes from the 50s-60s and they all sound great. I’m sure the expensive machines are amazing but content with this portable cheap one.

 

[Ron Resnick]

no rational argument can survive the moment we press the play key of a Studer A80, listen the muffled thump of the heavy capstan and the reels start moving at uniform speed instantaneously with clock precison ...

+1

 

[Ron Resnick]

I clean the tape heads constantly with 99.90% isopropyl alcohol.

I am supposed to occasionally demagnetize the tape heads?

 

[microstrip]

(...) I am supposed to occasionally demagnetize the tape heads?

If you ask this question in an audio forum you will get many different conflicting opinions ...

Unfortunately the links that I consider the reference on the subject are not active anymore: https://richardhess.com/notes/2006/03/24/demagnetizing-recorders-and-heads/

I know I downloaded these pdf's, but they are in a computer I can't access in the next days.

MRL advised to demagnetize the machine before using their callibration tapes and Studer included a demagnetizer in the A80 tool box, I use it!

Perhaps BruceC can chime on the subject.

 

[Kingrex]

You can get it much cheaper. If the standard electronics of the machine was good enough to feed the amplifiers of the vinyl cutting heads used to make the top recordings why do we need an outboard preamplifier?

I started out with an Otari 5050 fully reconditioned by Gene Wells. I may have spelled his last name wrong. Anyhow, beautiful work. Functions perfect. Handles tape very well. I understand these machines come from lots of 20 or more that were used to duplicate the master for production 3.4 and 7 ips retail tapes. So the quality it good. BUT. How good is it when you put it head to head with my vinyl or digital. It only matches those sources. When Tim Leinbaugh of Music Technology made me a direct out preamp for about $3k did the tape really come alive. My Otari is just fine for moving the tape. It would be nice if the Otari had a library rewind speed. Or a soft stop ouside toggling Rew to FF, then stop when it stops. But the electronics are nothing like what Tim made. Its night and day.

I have about 70 tapes. Most are pretty good. We have talked PM about the sources. Its easily my best source with most every tape I own when I compare it to my vinyl and digital. I feel if you really want to hear tapes full potential, a Prosumer machine with a outboard preamp will get you to a place similar to a full on pro machine.

And per the concern about repair. It is valid. There are great people doing the work. BUT shipping the machine is a feat. You have to have excellent packing. And its going to cost you $500 each way. BUT. I'm butting to often. But, if you have the money to be buying tapes and probably a $50k to $250k stereo, you have the $ to ship to a good repair person.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Here is the equation which needs to be solved for an individual considering getting into tape playback:

which tape machine + which tapes > my existing vinyl playback

 

[tima]

which tape machine + which tapes > my existing vinyl playback

which tape machine + which tapes > my existing digital playback

 

[Ron Resnick]

Probably good to check tracking force from time to time. I ordered a stylus force gauge.

 

[PeterA]

Probably good to check tracking force from time to time. I ordered a stylus force gauge.

Does tracking force change over time? I use my gauge to verify the accuracy of the scale on my arm. Once that is done, I never use it again. I adjust by ear, not the number on the stylus force gauge.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Does tracking force change over time?

I don't know. I assume that in theory it can change as mechanical mechanisms settle over time, or perhaps as tonearms are accidentally jostled.

 

[Kingrex]

Does tracking force change over time? I use my gauge to verify the accuracy of the scale on my arm. Once that is done, I never use it again. I adjust by ear, not the number on the stylus force gauge.

Why would you adjust tracking force by ear?

I believe if you change the SRA, the track force changes too.