Ron’s New System

[Al M.]

What armchair reasoning? Ron has been initiating amplifier discussions on his system thread and changes he would like to make for pages and pages now. This is his decision and his reasoning with help from Phil. I’ve stayed completely out of those discussions.

I never claimed to hear Ron‘s system nor have I ever claimed he should change it. He sounds very happy with it as do you. I’ve spoken to him about his speakers for years and I’m convinced he’s not going to sell them. I am not suggesting he sell them. I would not begin to suggest what he might possibly like more than them. These are his ideas for his subjective taste goals. No idea what you’re talking about.

I am simply supporting Kadar‘s comments about component matching. I learned that first hand in my own system. Some thing I can actually talk about.

Kadar has a lot of experience mixing and matching and auditioning gear all over the world. Ron seems to be asking for a lot of advice regarding these amplifiers and tubes and power.

I know enough to never suggest you change away from your mini monitors and that Ron never move away from his massive four tower panel speakers.

What am I talking about?

Quote:
Sometimes one needs to replace major components and sometimes the entire system. I learned a lot when comparing the 18 W SET to the 100 watt solid-state hybrid from the same company on my old, inefficient speakers. I was convinced I had to change my speakers too.

I think it’s going to be hard to claw those massive four tower speakers from Ron’s system. He is very satisfied with the sound of his system as are all of his visitors.

In the context you present, your wording strongly suggests that those speakers should be clawed from Ron's system if he were really up to the "real change" supposedly required, which you are so proud of for yourself.

Don't play the innocent victim here, please.

 

[PeterA]

But then there are those self-centered, absolutist dogmatists who think that all systems need to be their way.

Al, Ron seems pretty firm on Class A and massive panels with woofer towers and the supremacy of analog. He lusted after the Martin Logan Statements too. Just saying, most are quite firm in their beliefs. He will find the amps that work best for him with those given speakers.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Can you please clarify seriously considered?

1. Heard it at a show
2. Heard it on a system
3. heard it and compared in one system
4. heard it and compared with multiple speakers
5. Messaged random forum member about it and asked
6. Messaged forum member with tastes aligned and asked
7. Read review
8. Thought hard about it in absence of listening to it.

As you have said previously it is almost impossible except with unlimited funds to buy or secure four or five amplifiers and try them leisurely in one's own system.

I discussed with long-time assistant of system owner who leisurely compared in same system A-10000 and Siegfried II.

I probably could've gotten these amplifiers at a price so reasonable I simply could have bought them and compare them to Jadis in my own system. But in this particular case the amplifiers are so exotic and, according to a well respected (technician) who worked on them, possibly unreliable, that I felt I might not ever be able to sell them.

 

[Al M.]

or someone who gives armchair views on all videos without sharing one.

Just fyi, I don’t have a system and share system videos, and you have a system and don’t have the confidence to share videos – so the joke’s on you, in case you were laughing.

I "don't have the confidence" to share videos?

Empty blather typical of those who think the Video Emperor actually has clothes.

On the contrary, like many others I am supremely confident in my rational reasons for not posting system videos. There have been many discussions on WBF about those reasons, which are shared and were also discussed by many others.

 

[PeterA]

What am I talking about?

Quote:
Sometimes one needs to replace major components and sometimes the entire system. I learned a lot when comparing the 18 W SET to the 100 watt solid-state hybrid from the same company on my old, inefficient speakers. I was convinced I had to change my speakers too.

I think it’s going to be hard to claw those massive four tower speakers from Ron’s system. He is very satisfied with the sound of his system as are all of his visitors.

In the context you present, your wording strongly suggests that those speakers should be clawed from Ron's system if he were really up to the "real change" supposedly required, which you are so proud of for yourself.

Don't play the innocent victim here, please.

I think it is clear that Ron is searching for a more satisfying (to him) amplifier solution for the speakers he is surely keeping. I suppose you can refer to that as my armchair reasoning.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Imo, too many audiophiles think that it is right to compare things only in their system at home. “In my home! Where my wife sleeps! Where my children play! In my home!”

Here I disagree. I think there is nothing more informative than inserting one alternative component or a matched pair of alternative components into one's own system.

Not understanding that matching incorrectly is a pointless demo. And this is valid only if budget constraint is such that you can afford only swap of the one component, and no other change, to fit into your system.

I totally agree that it might make the most sense to swap in a matched, for example, tonearm/cartridge or preamp/amp. But swapping in a different speaker and amplifier is asking a totally different question -- certainly a different question than the question I am trying to answer.

 

[bonzo75]

I totally understand what you are saying: you think I don't, but I promise I do.

But I simply am asking a different question.

I am not trying to get to a higher indifference curve with a different speaker/amp combination. I am not trying to solve an equation seeking maximum upper bass to lower midrange weightiness.

I am trying to figure out which amplifier on my existing loudspeakers (which I think are the best loudspeakers for me -- in other words switching to a different speaker reduces my happiness) "maximizes upper bass to lower midrange weightiness," or, alternatively, "maximizes the sum of upper bass to lower midrange weightiness and midrange purity," without dropping below the minimum power/drive threshold.

In which case why ask about amps that will not drive your speakers appropriately. You are either looking for a 300b amp, or you are looking for an amp that matches with your speakers. You cannot have both, at least based on the observation that 100w Jadis do not have sufficient headroom. No decent 300b is going to be more powerful than Jadis or VTL. It could be awesome on speakers it is suited for.

 

[Al M.]

Exactly - Al seems to want to wage his own personal mind noise battles everywhere, ignoring Ron's very recent posts over the last day on these various amps.

What are you even talking about? I have closely followed all these posts about the diverse amps.

 

[Al M.]

I think it is clear that Ron is searching for a more satisfying (to him) amplifier solution for the speakers he is surely keeping. I suppose you can refer to that as my armchair reasoning.

Well, of course it is clear what Ron is searching for.

 

[bonzo75]

I probably could've gotten these amplifiers at a price so reasonable I simply could have bought them and compare them to Jadis in my own system. But in this particular case the amplifiers are so exotic and, according to a well respected (technician) who worked on them, possibly unreliable, that I felt I might not ever be able to sell them.

Ok thanks. So considerations other than sonic reasons. That’s fair, just wanted to clarify.

As you have said previously it is almost impossible except with unlimited funds to buy or secure four or five amplifiers and try them leisurely in one's own system.

My point is if sonically one cannot get proper demo, one should not classify them as “sonically considered”. Just ignore them and live with the itch.

 

[Ron Resnick]

And he shouldn’t compare inappropriate amps on his speakers and make a judgement about them

This is interesting in terms of trying to discern the point of disagreement.

In my opinion none of the amps I am considering at about 80 watts and above would be inappropriate on the Pendragons. Amps at 50 watts and below might very well be inappropriate. There has to be a power/drive line somewhere.

But the fact is that Brad has been most correct out of any of us on understanding the drive requirement of the BD75.

 

[bonzo75]

This is interesting in terms of trying to discern the point of disagreement.

In my opinion none of the amps I am considering at about 80 watts and above would be inappropriate on the Pendragons. Amps at 50 watts and below might very well be inappropriate. There has to be a power/drive line somewhere.

But the fact is that Brad has been most correct out of any of us on understanding the drive requirement of the BD75.

So why are you reporting headroom issues with Jadis, and then considering amps that do not have as much drive

 

[PeterA]

I totally understand what you are saying: you think I don't, but I promise I do.

But I simply am asking a different question.

I am not trying to get to a higher indifference curve with a different speaker/amp combination. I am not trying to solve an equation seeking maximum upper bass to lower midrange weightiness.

I am trying to figure out which amplifier on my existing loudspeakers (which I think are the best loudspeakers for me -- in other words switching to a different speaker reduces my happiness) "maximizes upper bass to lower midrange weightiness," or, alternatively, "maximizes the sum of upper bass to lower midrange weightiness and midrange purity," without dropping below the minimum power/drive threshold.

Ron, I appreciate the clarity with which you describe your goal.

In my own case, I got much more upper bass to lower midrange weightiness (when combined with presence, what some call mass) with serious changes to my power delivery and to a specific cartridge known for those qualities. I was astonished with the results. It turned out that that specific goal could be addressed by looking at a different part of the system.

I am curious to know if you think what you are looking for is strictly an amplifier issue.

 

[Audiohertz2]

This is interesting in terms of trying to discern the point of disagreement.

In my opinion none of the amps I am considering at about 80 watts and above would be inappropriate on the Pendragons. Amps at 50 watts and below might very well be inappropriate. There has to be a power/drive line somewhere.

But the fact is that Brad has been most correct out of any of us on understanding the drive requirement of the BD75.

There is not gonna be any difference in drive between those two based on power , quality of execution , topology or output toob type for sure giving a perceived difference in quality but not from a power drive Perspective ..!

3-4 times in power output for jump and drive differences, so if 70 watts is clipping go to 200 min or lower the volume ..!


Regards

 

[morricab]

ignore budget considerations, use only sonic for the below answers.

Case Study 1

If you are a digital only guy, and you realize TTs and tape decks are playing midrange, or whatever you give sonic weight to, better (for you) than your digital. This requires you to rearrange some elements in the chain. Should you shift

Case Study 2

If you have FR 64s and Koetsu, and realize you prefer the sound of vdh on SME. You then realize Koetsu does not work well on SME, and vdh does not work well on FR 64. You rate FR 64 higher as arm, but prefer overall the SME+VDH combo. Should you shift?

Case study 3

You have a speaker that works well with Krell. You realize 300b amps sound bad on your speaker, but can drive another speaker, and the midrange, weight (or whatever attributes you favor) of that combo is much better than Krell with your speaker. Should you shift?

Hint: Answer is always yes

Which is why it is better to listen to Kondo Gakuon on another suitable speaker rather than Pendragons.

The answer is no unless you are prepared to part with the speakers. The right answer is to borrow the Gakuon and try at home if possible or hear them on a similar speaker type. Listening to them on a completely different speaker won't tell you anything other than if they sound really good on that speaker...so unless you are prepared to buy the speakers with the amp you really need to try it on your own speakers or something very similar.

 

[morricab]

And you have visitors saying his speaker is not showing enough headroom on 100w push pulls

Is that person right? Perhaps he had a bias...perhaps he misunderstood what he heard.

 

[bonzo75]

Is that person right? Perhaps he had a bias...perhaps he misunderstood what he heard.

two people now, Don and Phil

 

[Audiohertz2]

There are also explanations as to why a lower power situation may be more sonically pleasing on these drivers as per Brad ..!


Regards

 

[Ron Resnick]

And you have visitors saying his speaker is not showing enough headroom on 100w push pulls

This is a mischaracterization. Only Phil, playing at deafening volume, believed he heard some compression.

The fact that the sound didn't fall apart leads me to the opposite conclusion as you -- it actually gives me encouragement that I might be able to go down to 50 watts (with good drive).

 

[morricab]

So why are you reporting headroom issues with Jadis, and then considering amps that do not have as much drive

Even if there are headroom problems at the top 1% of SPL that you would likely play, is it worth getting a poorer sounding amp for the other 99% just to have that 1% not compress (I don't think clipping actually happened...it is an unpleasant thing actual clipping)? I think not...

Far better to optimize for the other 99%...unless you have the budget to get something that sounds amazing and has the headroom...we both know that those likely don't exist...at least they don't to my satisfaction, I am very demanding on amplification.