Ron’s New System

[Ron Resnick]

I love the Trafomatic amplifiers but there are idiosyncratic questions for my system:

1) The tonal balance of the Elysium is not well-known to me;

2) Even with a colossal transformer we are still talking only 70 watts; and so maybe Wavac 833 at 150 watts is a safer bet;

3) Elysium has an unusually low input sensitivity of 3.5 mV -- will this cause an issue with a standard gain line stage preamp?

4) If yes, then I could use the Trafomatic line stage preamp, but that is an all-tube output stage (generally higher output impedances), and I am skeptical that an all-tube output stage can drive 50 feet of interconnect without loss of dynamics and without attenuation of high frequencies.

Thoughts?

 

[bonzo75]

Too bad that with your superpower

I think you completely missed the point that with free will people can make the decision themselves if they are open minded, listen to live acoustic, and check out equipment differing from their current.

but you are right. One of superman’s criticism is he interfered too much and made earthlings dependent. Clark was lucky to have superpowers under Earth’s sun. He came from London, was under 50 so superhearing, no kids, lots of concert halls, 4 airports, so could fly around, and his system got destroyed when his rocket landed so he had no agenda. All that made him superman

 

[bonzo75]

All that made him superman

Or, as Yossarian says in Catch-22,

I am Tarzan, Mandrake, Flash Gordon. I am Bill Shakespeare. I am Cain, Ulysses, the Flying Dutchman; Lot in Sodom, Deirdre of the Sorrows, Sweeney in the nightingales among trees. I am miracle ingredient Z-247. I am -
Crazy!" Clevinger interrupted, shrieking. "That's what you are! Crazy!" "immense. I'm a real slam-bang, honest-to-goodness, three-fisted humdinger. I'm a bona fide Supraman."
"Superman?" Clevinger cried. "Superman?"
Supraman," Yossarian corrected.”

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...oh Clark. Thank you for entrusting us with your secret. No doubt, acoustics in the Fortress of Solitude must be troublesome. Carry on.

 

[PeterA]

I have heard Lamm electronics in numerous systems over the years. Nothing has ever suggested to me that Lamm electronics sound on the cool or thin side of the spectrum.

I am not claiming to be able to pinpoint how warm; I'm simply saying Lamm is somewhere on the warm side of the neutral line.


Jadis is somewhere on the warm side of the neutral line.

So why are you asking me how could I not know which is warmer?

Thank you Ron. It took a while, but I can now make sense of your opinion about these two amps.

What would be an example of an amplifier which you find to be right on the neutral line between cool and warm on this spectrum?

I really no longer think in these terms about a tonal spectrum from cool to warm. I was trying to work within your nomenclature. I listen and then ask myself how natural a component or system sounds in a give context and across various different recordings. If there is a character across instruments and recordings, I consider the system or component, if it can be isolated, as being colored. I do not have that impression of Lamm SET amps. We seem to disagree about their sound. That is fine. I did hear Jadis years ago and it was as you describe.

 

[bonzo75]

Fortress of Solitude

This term was first used to describe an audiophile's listening room

 

[Johan K]

This term was first used to describe an audiophile's listening room

Maybe mental recovery center is another !

 

[Lagonda]

I love the Trafomatic amplifiers but there are idiosyncratic questions for my system:

1) The tonal balance of the Elysium is not well-known to me;

2) Even with a colossal transformer we are still talking only 70 watts; and so maybe Wavac 833 at 150 watts is a safer bet;

3) Elysium has an unusually low input sensitivity of 3.5 mV -- will this cause an issue with a standard gain line stage preamp?

4) If yes, then I could use the Trafomatic line stage preamp, but that is an all-tube output stage (generally higher output impedances), and I am skeptical that an all-tube output stage can drive 50 feet of interconnect without loss of dynamics and without attenuation of high frequencies.

Thoughts?

Paying that kind of money for relative new and untested Eastern European amplifiers just baffles my mind, who seriously does that ? I understand the lure of getting audio equipment at reasonable prices, NAT and Kron have their place but paying German or Swiss prices for something made in Serbia ? https://www.trafomaticaudio.com/about-us/

 

[Al M.]

I really no longer think in these terms about a tonal spectrum from cool to warm. I was trying to work within your nomenclature. I listen and then ask myself how natural a component or system sounds in a give context and across various different recordings.

Yet warm and cool are not even necessarily audiophile terms. They easily apply to the sound of venues for unamplified live music as well.

About 30 years ago in The Netherlands I heard the same music (diverse works by Alfred Schnittke) played by the same musicians in two different concert halls. First up was the wood covered chamber music hall of Vredenburg in Utrecht. Very warm, wooden sound, incredible body in the lower midrange. A few days later, the same program with the same musicians in the stone covered hall of De Doelen, Rotterdam. Much brighter, lighter, more "transparent" sound, and really cool in character. Hearing that brutal sonic contrast in unamplified live music was one of the most intense and unforgettable experiences in my life as an audiophile.

Describing a system or component sound as either being on the cool or on the warm side, generally speaking, is highly useful in my view. Reducing everything to the descriptor "natural" seems quite simplistic.

 

[bonzo75]

Yet warm and cool are not even necessarily audiophile terms. They easily apply to the sound of venues for unamplified live music as well

Warm for reproduced music is different to live, as in it imparts a warm character from the component on every recording, even if is not there in the recording. As compared to neutral or transparent to recording, which will show a warm sound if recording has warm tones, or otherwise.

Unfortunately the terms have been maligned by those with no experience to transparency to recordings to mean that neutral and transparent is sterile and emotional, and/or that valves are warm.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Paying that kind of money for relative new and untested Eastern European amplifiers just baffles my mind, who seriously does that ? I understand the lure of getting audio equipment at reasonable prices, NAT and Kron have their place but paying German or Swiss prices for something made in Serbia ? https://www.trafomaticaudio.com/about-us/

Thank you for that separate concern, but that is not on my list of issues.

I have spent quality time with Elysium, and I love it. The question is some technical compatibility issues with my particular system.

 

[bonzo75]

Reducing everything to the descriptor "natural" seems quite simplistic.

This I agree..

The opposite, artificial/synthetic sounding is more useful

 

[Al M.]

Warm for reproduced music is different to live, as in it imparts a warm character from the component on every recording, even if is not there in the recording. As compared to neutral or transparent to recording, which will show a warm sound if recording has warm tones, or otherwise.

Unfortunately the terms have been maligned by those with no experience to transparency to recordings to mean that neutral and transparent is sterile and emotional, and/or that valves are warm.

There is not necessarily a connection. A generally warmer or cooler sounding component can still reveal large differences in tonality of recordings. The homogenization of sound by some components is a different issue -- I agree that this can be problem..

Also, what is "neutral" is in the eyes of the beholder -- and how a component behaves with respect to this question may be system dependent as well.

 

[bonzo75]

Also, what is "neutral" is in the eyes of the beholder -- and how a component behaves with respect to this question may be system dependent as well.

Neutral is not a sonic colour. It lets through various sonic characteristics.

 

[Al M.]

Neutral is not a sonic colour. It lets through various sonic characteristics.

Agreed. And this can take place within a generally warmer or cooler soundscape. There are components or systems, however, that make everything sound the same.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Congratulations Ron on the 5T, recently I have been listening to the 5T again I have found over the years of experimenting it is very capable of real weight it is very sensitive to its mounting platform I have had to had various arm boards machined also to the cables and not to mention the turntable and cartridge itself. Its a tremendous bit of kit and highly capable one I could have easily dismissed if I was not prepared to put the work into maximizing its performance. I wish you years of pleasure with it if I can help in any way you are most welcome to contact me privatly.

Dear Mik,

Thank you for your post, and thank you very kindly for your offer to help! I really appreciate it!

I am absolutely loving the 5T. What it does for vocals – my main musical genre interest – is just magic.

I won't hesitate to contact you privately if I have questions.

What cartridges are you finding ideal on the 5T?

Thank you, again!

 

[PeterA]

Yet warm and cool are not even necessarily audiophile terms. They easily apply to the sound of venues for unamplified live music as well.

Yes I agree Al. But concert halls are not amplifiers, and we are talking about whether a piece of electronics sounds convincing and natural or whether it colors everything that goes through it. Concert halls impose their character on the sound, but the sound that reaches us in different seats still sounds natural. Each hall has its own character. The best halls, the ones people hold up as examples like Vienna and Boston, rise above the rest.

If a system or a component has a character like a concert hall which permeates every instrument in every recording, it is not what I want. We can move around concert halls to choose the seats the provide the sound we want. That is a different exercise

The analogy only goes so far and we are talking about audio components, amplifiers specifically in Ron’s case and in this thread. We are not talking about concert halls. And we are talking about two specific amplifiers in the recent sub discussion. I’d rather my amplifier not have a specific character on someone’s tone spectrum. That’s why I now base my judgment on the question of whether or not it sounds natural.

About 30 years ago in The Netherlands I heard the same music (diverse works by Alfred Schnittke) played by the same musicians in two different concert halls. First up was the wood covered chamber music hall of Vredenburg in Utrecht. Very warm, wooden sound, incredible body in the lower midrange. A few days later, the same program with the same musicians in the stone covered hall of De Doelen, Rotterdam. Much brighter, lighter, more "transparent" sound, and really cool in character. Hearing that brutal sonic contrast in unamplified live music was one of the most intense and unforgettable experiences in my life as an audiophile.

Describing a system or component sound as either being on the cool or on the warm side, generally speaking, is highly useful in my view. Reducing everything to the descriptor "natural" seems quite simplistic.

Yes the term natural is in a sense simplistic, but it’s a standard and one to which I can relate. It’s based on a reference that is used for judgment while listening. It’s for my own use. It’s certainly possible and helpful to break things apart when trying to describe specifics to someone else.

Each of us has his own approach. I was trying to understand Ron’s comments within the framework of his language. I understand temperature differences on a tonal spectrum and as coloration and character. Sometimes good sometimes bad. After a number of questions, I think I understand what he’s talking about. We end up in the same place. It’s a question of whether or not something imposes a warmness or a coolness onto everything. If that is the case, in my mind, that component or system has a coloration. This is distinct from an instrument’s warm rich tone.

 

[Ron Resnick]

If a system or a component has a character like a concert hall which permeates every instrument in every recording, it is not what I want.

Respectfully Peter, I think the idea that your components uniquely are utterly neutral and without character, and impose no endemic sonic characteristics on each of your recordings, is a misunderstanding of how things actually work.

 

[PeterA]

Warm for reproduced music is different to live, as in it imparts a warm character from the component on every recording, even if is not there in the recording. As compared to neutral or transparent to recording, which will show a warm sound if recording has warm tones, or otherwise.

Unfortunately the terms have been maligned by those with no experience to transparency to recordings to mean that neutral and transparent is sterile and emotional, and/or that valves are warm.

I completely agree. We’re not talking about the character of a concert hall. We’re talking about the ability of an amplifier to convey accurately what’s on the recording. It sounds to me like the Jadis has a distinct character and it is one that Ron really likes. That’s great if it is what he is looking for to increase the enjoyment of his listening experience.

 

[PeterA]

Respectfully Peter, I think the idea that your components uniquely are utterly neutral and without character, and impose no endemic sonic characteristics on each of your recordings, is a misunderstanding of how things actually work.

Ron, that’s not what I wrote. I never said anything about uniqueness and utter neutrality. This is a miss characterization and misunderstanding of my post. We simply have a different impression of the Lamm SET and Jadis. I admit my experience with Jadis is limited. But it’s not about what I think. I was asking you what do you think while trying to inderstand your posts in your language of a tonal spectrum involving temperature.