Ron’s New System

[mxk116]

clocks are very susceptible to resonance. think about it. they keep time related to vibration.

Mike, do you have any experience with Norman Varney's EVP's (AV Roomservice) under your clock or other digital components?

I have seen/heard Wadax use them at a couple of trade shows and the Wadax dealer in Florida (Bending Wave, USA) uses them in their demo rooms. The improved clarity they deliver (especially under the clock and DAC in my rig) is demonstrable.

 

[PeterA]

That's rich coming from you, considering you asked Steve to delete from your system thread posts you didn't like.

That is actually not accurate. it was a mutual decision for what we thought at the time was best for the forum. They were posts about purple dinosaurs and Indian food. No point in bringing that back up.

We can get back to the topic of warmth and tonal density. Call them whatever you want, but they contribute to the overall listening experience of the system in a room at the listening. There are many ways to address those issues. Some are detrimental.

To get this back on topic of your system thread, what is your current target for the performance of your system, and how are you going to go about achieving it? Finally, what criteria do you use to judge the result?

 

[PYP]

Of course, but I'm not talking about A/Bing the clock; I'm talking about A/Bing the footers underneath the clock.

I think being skeptical is essential in all things.

Having tweaked for many many years, I decided to purchase equipment that "needed" no tweaks. After observing variability in playback performance during the day and night, I became curious about the reasons for this variability. I slowly and selectively started to experiment with ways to reduce RFI and vibration (for so-called "digital" systems - let's not forget the A in DAC). What I found to my own satisfaction for components that contain a clock is:

1. keep them as far away as possible from other equipment (RFI control)
2. controlling vibration leads to improvement in playback realism
3. keep the component powered on at all times
4. if the power fails, allow at least 1 day to achieve the same level of performance (that is, be patient)

 

[Ron Resnick]

To get this back on topic of your system thread, what is your current target for the performance of your system

The target always was and remains maximizing emotional engagement.

and how are you going to go about achieving it?

By Objective 1) seeking to recreate the sound of an original musical event, and Objective 4) create a sound that seems live.

Finally, what criteria do you use to judge the result?

Judged by emotional engagement and suspension of disbelief, and does it sound like a live musical event?

 

[steve williams]

I agree on each point. This is why what I actually wrote (in full) is:

"I am a tweak skeptic. To me it is all audiophile nervosa until I hear a net sonic improvement."

So all I am saying is that I subscribe to "prove it" rather than assuming that tweaks necessarily achieve a net sonic benefit (and for the avoidance of doubt I know that you do not assume that tweaks necessarily achieve a net sonic benefit).

you have to prove it to yourself Ron as I see it. I think one has to be a skeptic in all things until they discover the truth for themselves. Plus one man's poison can be another man's passion. I agree with Mike's postulate and you should prove it somehow to yourself otherwise this is nothing but talk

 

[PeterA]

Stop! Frivolous, snarky posts are worse than repetitive, dead horse posts. At least Peter is talking audio.

It's not shocking that two students who have the same mentor wind up holding the same views.

Ron, I appreciate that you understand the distinction between useless off-topic posts and something related to your system thread.

Tim and I do not hold the same views, but we do have similar views and approaches. Yes, we have both been influenced by our friend David Karmeli and his extensive knowledge and experience. I am also influenced by my friend in Vienna, and what he said about listening to live music. Tim has more knowledge about music and playing instruments and reading the score than I have, and that experience undoubtedly influences his thoughts about audio.

Anyway, back to your thread. What would you say are your biggest influences in the hobby and most responsible for where you are now in your approach and thinking?

 

[Ron Resnick]

What would you say are your biggest influences in the hobby and most responsible for where you are now in your approach and thinking?

I have not had influences like that. No one is responsible for where I am now in my approach and thinking other than me. I listened to a lot of stuff in the beginning, and I figured out what sounds most realistic to me. I have pursued refinements of that sound ever since.

"The Absolute Sound" has always made sense to me. But I re-characterize the concept as seeking to recreate the sound of an original musical event, and to create a sound that seems live.

I have always been very self-directed. The starting point was what I have always described as my "religious experience" of an audio nature. In 1988, Michael Kay of Lyric Hi-Fi played for me the Infinity IRS V system driven by Jadis JA200s with a Koetsu cartridge on a Goldmund Reference turntable. Listening to Reference Recordings' Symphonie Fantastique on that system was a religious experience of the audio variety! I was hooked!

I auditioned back then a variety of dynamic driver loudspeakers, but I cottoned naturally to the planar dipole presentation. My first loudspeaker was the Magnepan MG-IIIA. My first amplifier was an Aragon 4004.

I found the Aragon to be a touch dry on the Magnepan ribbon tweeter. (Not much in my subjective sonic preferences has changed in all these years!) I switched pretty quickly to Manley 150s and a conrad-johnson PV-10 (maybe PV-11?) line stage preamplifier. I have enjoyed planar dipole loudspeakers and tube electronics ever since.

Since those beginnings I have heard a wide variety of different types of speakers and different types of systems in different types of rooms all over the world, but I remain entranced by the open presentation of planar dipole loudspeakers and the sound of tube electronics. I have pursued what I perceive to be refinements of this sound ever since.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, do you have any experience with Norman Varney's EVP's (AV Roomservice) under your clock or other digital components?

I have seen/heard Wadax use them at a couple of trade shows and the Wadax dealer in Florida (Bending Wave, USA) uses them in their demo rooms. The improved clarity they deliver (especially under the clock and DAC in my rig) is demonstrable.

Elliot has offered to hook me up with Norm's products, but i have my own approach to these issues and am happy. in the case of my clock there is no height to allow any added tweaks.

i do use the Taiko Daiza panzerholtz platforms under each (of 6) digital chassis, which help with RFI, as well as the Nordost QRT QPoints, under the Wadax dac and server, as well as Tripoint Elite grounding to my Wadax dac. i am happy with it.

 

[wil]

That is actually not accurate. it was a mutual decision for what we thought at the time was best for the forum. They were posts about purple dinosaurs and Indian food. No point in bringing that back up.

We can get back to the topic of warmth and tonal density. Call them whatever you want, but they contribute to the overall listening experience of the system in a room at the listening. There are many ways to address those issues. Some are detrimental.

To get this back on topic of your system thread, what is your current target for the performance of your system, and how are you going to go about achieving it? Finally, what criteria do you use to judge the result?

Deleting any post about purple dinosaurs is a travesty, imho.

 

[bonzo75]

I do remember Ron deleted one of my jokes from Peter’s thread and told me it was Peter’s wish as it was off topic and Ron further texted me he (Ron) didn’t like the humour. In furious anger I started this thread

Thread 'Bar Brawl'
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/bar-brawl.33130/

 

[Argonaut]

That is actually not accurate. it was a mutual decision for what we thought at the time was best for the forum.

Since when do you decide what is best for this forum ?

 

[fbhifi]

Yes, clocks need a day or two to stabilize and sound their best.

I probably should have been more specific by what I meant by “stabilize.” My understanding is that master clock crystals, by design, have an associated “oven” to allow them to reach an optimal operating temperature. Once that optimal temperature is reached and maintained the connected digital component- DAC or in the case of the Esoteric T1, turntable, will sound its best.

 

[KeithR]

Easy to divert to ddk. He lives in several heads rent free and is always a good coin to arouse the pointy bleaters.
But be that as it may.

Sound preferences are subjective yet some systems/rooms sound better than others. I thought Keith's point was that your room shape is difficult as witnessed by the many experts who have tried to 'fix' it and the many treatments you have tried. The way it reads thus far suggests there are challenges. Along with the many different acoustic treatments there appears to be a regular changing of equipment: speakers, electronics, sources. An alternative explanation to Keith's -- random speculation on my part -- is that your subjective preferences keep changing because your system/room keeps changing -or- you haven't quite established a stable reference to serve as the target against which change is directed and assessed. Only you know.

Nontheless, if you are happy doing what you're doing, isn't that what matters?

Correct. I would actually take everything out and start over with a real expert.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I would actually take everything out and start over with a real expert.

I easily could do that, as it doesn't take long to remove two corner tube traps; remove a few 1/2" panels absorbing first reflections; and flip the rocker switches on three PSI AVAAs to "off."

Presently the front wall is bare, the front side walls are bare, the glass walls are covered as I want them to be. The acoustic treatment I have presently adds up to much less than the acoustic treatment lining a typical dedicated listening room outfitted by a professional acoustician.

I'm not interested in an "expert" opinion on what to do with the front wall behind planar dipole loudspeakers. I'm quite comfortable deciding that for myself, having set up numerous planar dipole speakers in numerous listening rooms for over three decades.

If an "expert" doesn't believe in treating first reflections I don't need that person's advice. If an "expert" thinks naked walls of glass in the listening room are fine I don't need that person's advice. In short I am happy and satisfied with the current acoustic treatment set-up.

The important thing for me to do is basic speaker positioning ab initio. But right now I'm really enjoying the sound in the room.

 

[tima]

Deleting any post about purple dinosaurs is a travesty, imho.

 

[KeithR]

I'm not interested in an "expert" opinion on what to do with the front wall behind planar dipole loudspeakers. I'm quite comfortable deciding that for myself, having set up numerous planar dipole speakers in numerous listening rooms for over three decades.

If an "expert" doesn't believe in treating first reflections I don't need that person's advice. If an "expert" thinks naked walls of glass in the listening room are fine I don't need that person's advice. In short I am happy and satisfied with the current acoustic treatment set-up.

The important thing for me to do is basic speaker positioning ab initio. But right now I'm really enjoying the sound in the room.

Its not about 1 thing, Ron. It's about getting SOTA sound out of your speakers and room as a combined unit. I'm challenging you to get to that goal. You never had basic speaker positioning correct with the Gryphons as your experience with 4 column speakers wasn't enough to get you there. I hope that changes with the Clarisys.

I'd be curious to read @Al M. take on the room and positioning as that seems to always be his issue at home.

 

[PeterA]

The important thing for me to do is basic speaker positioning ab initio. But right now I'm really enjoying the sound in the room.

I respect that you want to do things on your own Ron. That’s one way to learn and gain experience. I’m curious about all of your reporting about soliciting opinions from others, both visitors to the room and readers of this thread. You ask a lot of questions and seem to be asking for a lot of advice.

I appreciate that you say you’re very happy with the sound your system. Do you think your system will remain more or less the same in a year from now? Or are you still searching for improvements and possible further gear changes?

You have ranked your system in the second tier of the top five systems you’ve ever heard anywhere in the world, subject to change of course. Is this the Pendragon or Clarisys system? What would you describe as the top two or three strengths of your Clarisys system and the top two or three weaknesses of your system as heard from the listening chair, not theory?

 

[Al M.]

Its not about 1 thing, Ron. It's about getting SOTA sound out of your speakers and room as a combined unit. I'm challenging you to get to that goal. You never had basic speaker positioning correct with the Gryphons as your experience with 4 column speakers wasn't enough to get you there. I hope that changes with the Clarisys.

I'd be curious to read @Al M. take on the room and positioning as that seems to always be his issue at home.

Keith, I thought Ron's set-up in January with the Pendragons and the Jadis amps was excellent and I had no criticism about the room. Could the set-up have been even better? Possibly.

Yet the room did not sound overdamped *), but the sound was open and free, more open and free than from any other system in a person's home that I have heard until I experienced Jim Yager's system/room recently.

When I recently heard the Clarysis, the bass towers were on the inside, between the speakers, and I did not like the sound. As I told Ron, I thought that configuration was a problem, since I suspected the Clarysis could not couple with one another. In the same vein, I also thought the speakers were too far apart due to that configuration. I am sure that now, with the bass towers on the outside, the sound will be much better, even though I wonder if the speakers are still too far apart.

____________

*) If, as you report in #5749, David Karmeli found even the empty room overdamped, that is quite a strange position to take, but not entirely surprising given his, let's say, unusual opinions.

 

[Ron Resnick]

It turns out that a number of my digital friends are using ethernet distribution buses (sometimes called "switches") as buffers or noise scrubbers on the incoming internet cable. pk_LA also uses an ethernet distribution bus. sbnx also recommends this.

So I may bite the rabbit's foot (so it will stop digging), and order an EtherREGEN Gen 1 device.

 

[Ron Resnick]

It's been fun to go for a value proposition for my digital leg of the source triad, and to see how much sound quality I can get for as relatively little money as possible. My entire digital set up, including cables, has an MSRP of under US$15,000.