Ron’s New System

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, in this fantasy scenario, what speaker would you choose to assess whether or not the amplifiers sound the same?

my Clarisys speakers

Assess whether amplifiers sound the same? That's not what I'm assessing. I assess which amplifier achieves greater suspension of disbelief and sounds more natural and convincing.

Have you ever compared the ML2 directly to another amplifier in the same system

no

 

[Ron Resnick]

Did he listen to the VTL in triode mode with low damping?

He has in the past, yes.

 

[microstrip]

He has in the past, yes.

Didn't he like it? I find that is this mode the Siegfried approaches much of the sound of SETs.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Didn't he like it?

no

I find that is this mode the Siegfried approaches much of the sound of SETs.

I would not go that far. Full range I prefer triode mode.

But if high-power, push-pull, massed tube amps approached much of the end of SETs, then we wouldn't need SETs.

 

[pjwd]

Yes, we get strong smearing. I also own ESL 63 - a completely different sound perspective.

My point is that the way we look at surfaces depends on conditions. For example, we need a significant distance between the sound source and the diffusor before it starts working as a diffusor. In small rooms diffusors do not act as diffusors.

Yes .. depending on frequency of course
I am not a fan of diffusers or absorbers at first reflection points because they mess up phase.
I think distance is the best option .. followed by redirection

 

[microstrip]

no


I would not go that far. Full range I prefer triode mode.

But if high-power, push-pull, massed tube amps approached much of the end of SETs, then we wouldn't need SETs.

Yes, high power tube amplifiers can't approach the way SET's clip or distort at low power.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I am hearing tonight that keeping the first near side wall reflections and the first side wall cross reflections widens the sound-stage.

 

[Ron Resnick]

With the entrance yesterday of a new piece for audition (and I am still woofer-cooking) I am the happiest I have ever been with the sound of my own stereo system.

 

[pjwd]

I am hearing tonight that keeping the first near side wall reflections and the first side wall cross reflections widens the sound-stage.

That may be that your reflections are now correlated with your direct sound .. it may be better again if you had a longer time between the two

 

[Ron Resnick]

That may be that your reflections are now correlated with your direct sound .. it may be better again if you had a longer time between the two

Well if you'd like to make a big donation for me to buy a bigger house in Beverly Hills so I can have a 25 or 30 foot wide listening room I'm very open to it!

Thank you!

 

[pjwd]

Well if you'd like to make a big donation for me to buy a bigger house in Beverly Hills so I can have a 25 or 30 foot wide listening room I'm very open to it!

Thank you!

Your thanks might be a little premature

 

[Ron Resnick]

Your thanks might be a little premature

 

[bonzo75]

Didn't he like it? I find that is this mode the Siegfried approaches much of the sound of SETs.

Professor, please explain to class how low, negative feedback 12 output tube 6550/KT88 amp approaches sounds of zero feedback, 2a3/45/300b/211 etc with 2 to 4 output tubes, the latter with much less components (allowing each component to be a much higher quality). Just because a switch changes it from Pentode to triode? And which speaker did you use the Siegfrieds on for this insightful assessment?

 

[cjfrbw]

I had VTL 450 monos for a few years and triode mode was a bit more ethereal while the non triode was fuller and meatier. Neither came close to a single ended triode in dynamically open upper midrange and I did direct comparisons.

Of course, I can't speak to all bigass tube farms, some are excellent like CAT, but I tend to agree that they just don't do what the SETs manage. I think they have a tendency to compress in that midrange to upper midrange area that SETs excel at.

 

[morricab]

no


I would not go that far. Full range I prefer triode mode.

But if high-power, push-pull, massed tube amps approached much of the end of SETs, then we wouldn't need SETs.

The closest to SET I have heard in a Push pull amp is a Class A triode with precisely two output tubes per channel…the minimum for PP…oh and zero feedback.

 

[morricab]

I had VTL 450 monos for a few years and triode mode was a bit more ethereal while the non triode was fuller and meatier. Neither came close to a single ended triode in dynamically open upper midrange and I did direct comparisons.

Of course, I can't speak to all bigass tube farms, some are excellent like CAT, but I tend to agree that they just don't do what the SETs manage. I think they have a tendency to compress in that midrange to upper midrange area that SETs excel at.

CAT JL2 signature was pretty good but was handily dispatched by a pair of NAT SE2SE monos (211 based amps) on Apogee Grand panels (used full range like a Diva and with Diva xover).

 

[morricab]

This raises several questions in kind of a pejorative way. If you were answering a question about SET the first way you would answer is to say that no, not all multi-tube output stage amps sound the same.

In fact, not all SET amps sound the same. I was hoping that that gorgeous TB3/1000 SET I hosted did not sound like a giant Lamm ML2.

I have never abandoned my "alternative fantasy amp" quest for a 100 watt SET or PSET that sounds like ML2 or Viva Aurora.


This assumes that what they are hearing is in some way determinate or objective. If a name reviewer came into my room + system and heard no depth and reported the sound was flat against the front wall, and nobody else heard this, who is "correct"?


It depends on what level of connection you're talking about. When I was a teenager I connected well with the music I like over the car radio. Today I could do that with Bose -- no need for the hobby if we just want to listen to music somehow.


In a subjective hobby very little is objectively wrong. Phil has very noble intentions -- virtually everybody has noble intentions -- which is why I am always open to and always curious to hear all comments by all visitors.

For me personally Phil's no depth/flatness comment is the most baffling. Lots of things are baffling in this hobby in terms of perceptions of different listeners.

The answer, almost always, is that it's a subjective hobby.

Some of the things I feel I hear most clearly and most "objectively" in certain systems are completely baffling and unable to be understood by the owners of those systems. So I am in Phil's shoes with regard to certain systems I have listened to.

One analytical way to deal with the statistical dispersion of comments in a subjective hobby is to look for repeat comments and to discard outlier comments.

I just asked you if you heard what Phil hears or not. Then if you do, whether that bothers you or not. Finally, I asked if you thought he was objectively wrong about how he describes your system sonically…not how it makes him feel.

Not sure what the comments are around a particular SET compared to and ML2. Did you try something that you felt was LAMM like and you didn’t like that sound?

 

[DasguteOhr]

I had VTL 450 monos for a few years and triode mode was a bit more ethereal while the non triode was fuller and meatier. Neither came close to a single ended triode in dynamically open upper midrange and I did direct comparisons.

Of course, I can't speak to all bigass tube farms, some are excellent like CAT, but I tend to agree that they just don't do what the SETs manage. I think they have a tendency to compress in that midrange to upper midrange area that SETs excel at.

Impedance match tube/Opt change you get more controll over the speakers and distorsion mostly 1/3 of ultralinear mode. Thats why sounds cleaner a bit leaner.
The midrange can be controlled by changing the operating point of the tube (idle current lower you get more k2),

 

[morricab]

Impedance match tube/Opt change you get more controll over the speakers and distorsion mostly 1/3 of ultralinear mode. Thats why sounds cleaner a bit leaner.
The midrange can be controlled by changing the operating point of the tube (idle current lower you get more k2),

I think VTL uses true Tetrode mode or Triode, no UL.

 

[DasguteOhr]

I think VTL uses true Tetrode mode or Triode, no UL.

With this distortion profile i think they run in class ab1, but i have not seen the shematics.
I would not do zero global feedback, you get a lot of gain and the amplifier becomes unstable (tendency to oscillate).