Ron’s New System

[Rexp]

For example, I don't think I'm particularly sensitive to discerning the sonic ambience cues of the physical extremities of the concert hall in which unamplified acoustic music is recorded. If 10 people happen to make substantially the same comment that they feel that side reflections are confusing the ability to hear the dimensionality of the concert hall -- even if I don't hear what they're talking about -- it might drive me to consider experimenting with absorbing or diffusing side reflections.

Interesting, would you say those 10 people have objectivley better hearing than you?

 

[PeterA]

IME, if Ron listens to music he likes and as long as it is not bright (to him), he doesn't care.

This is how I interpret his many posts.

 

[Ron Resnick]

So, you don’t hear the thinness of tone or flatness of soundstage or smearing from multi-tube output stages of amps, which he claims to hear in your system?

This raises several questions in kind of a pejorative way. If you were answering a question about SET the first way you would answer is to say that no, not all multi-tube output stage amps sound the same.

In fact, not all SET amps sound the same. I was hoping that that gorgeous TB3/1000 SET I hosted did not sound like a giant Lamm ML2.

I have never abandoned my "alternative fantasy amp" quest for a 100 watt SET or PSET that sounds like ML2 or Viva Aurora.

Or rather, do you hear all

This assumes that what they are hearing is in some way determinate or objective. If a name reviewer came into my room + system and heard no depth and reported the sound was flat against the front wall, and nobody else heard this, who is "correct"?

but you connect well with the music and don’t care?

It depends on what level of connection you're talking about. When I was a teenager I connected well with the music I like over the car radio. Today I could do that with Bose -- no need for the hobby if we just want to listen to music somehow.

Or do you think his observations are objectively wrong but you listen to him because he has noble intentions?

In a subjective hobby very little is objectively wrong. Phil has very noble intentions -- virtually everybody has noble intentions -- which is why I am always open to and always curious to hear all comments by all visitors.

For me personally Phil's no depth/flatness comment is the most baffling. Lots of things are baffling in this hobby in terms of perceptions of different listeners.

The answer, almost always, is that it's a subjective hobby.

Some of the things I feel I hear most clearly and most "objectively" in certain systems are completely baffling and unable to be understood by the owners of those systems. So I am in Phil's shoes with regard to certain systems I have listened to.

One analytical way to deal with the statistical dispersion of comments in a subjective hobby is to look for repeat comments and to discard outlier comments.

 

[Ron Resnick]

IME, if Ron listens to music he likes and as long as it is not bright (to him), he doesn't care.

false

Proof: I could get a boombox with an equalizer and turn down the treble to satisfy your hypothesis, and I would care -- proving your hypothesis false.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Interesting, would you say those 10 people have objectivley better hearing than you?

No. I am talking about different relative sensitivity to one (1) out of perhaps dozens of different sonic attributes we could define.

That is one sonic attribute that I am not particularly sensitive to. On the other side I think I am particularly sensitive to channel imbalance, "liquidity"/"breath of life" and tonal balance, among other sonic attributes, and I think I am better at perceiving these particular sonic attributes than the average audiophile.

 

[Rexp]

Huh?

I am talking about different relative sensitivity to one (1) out of perhaps dozens of different sonic attributes we could define.

That is one sonic attribute that I am not particularly sensitive to. On the other side I think I am particularly sensitive to channel balance, breath of life and tonal balance, among other sonic attributes, and I think I am better at perceiving these particular sonic attributes than the average audiophile.

So you're good at hearing some things better than others?

 

[Ron Resnick]

So you're good at hearing some things better than others?

Yes. Isn't everybody?

Don't you feel that way about yourself?

 

[Rexp]

Yes. Isn't everybody?

Don't you feel that way about yourself?

Yes, just wanted to clarify.

 

[Al M.]

the leitmotif of your posts.

Another thing is also that, apart from distance to side walls and general room acoustics, different speaker types have different dispersion patterns. For ribbon speakers like Ron has them the dispersion will be different than for cone speakers, which disperse sound less directionally and thus are more likely to require sidewall treatment.

 

[PeterA]

In fact, not all SET amps sound the same. I was hoping that that gorgeous TB3/1000 SET I hosted did not sound like a giant Lamm ML2.

I have never abandoned my "alternative fantasy amp" quest for a 100 watt SET or PSET that sounds like ML2 or Viva Aurora.

Ron, in this fantasy scenario, what speaker would you choose to assess whether or not the amplifiers sound the same?

Have you ever compared the ML2 directly to another amplifier in the same system and if so, what speakers were they both driving?

 

[PeterA]

Another thing is also that, apart from distance to side walls and general room acoustics, different speaker types have different dispersion patterns. For ribbon speakers like Ron has them the dispersion will be different than for cone speakers, which disperse sound less directionally and thus are more likely to require sidewall treatment.

But Ron has lived with panels most of his life, and he still made the generalization that audiophiles think first and second reflection points should be absorbed or diffused and so he did that.

I don’t agree with that generalization he made. Some of the best systems I’ve ever heard. Don’t have any audiophile acoustic treatments in the rooms. And much also depends on how you orient the speaker. Acoustic treatments are the last thing I would add to a room and only after everything else has been explored.

 

[microstrip]

(...) he does not like VTL (...)

Did he listen to the VTL in triode mode with low damping?

 

[microstrip]

Another thing is also that, apart from distance to side walls and general room acoustics, different speaker types have different dispersion patterns. For ribbon speakers like Ron has them the dispersion will be different than for cone speakers, which disperse sound less directionally and thus are more likely to require sidewall treatment.

Yes, when using some panel speakers, like the SoundLab A1 Px I am using, flat walls become diffusors. Unfortunately people have notions of what is diffusion and absorption like it is a simple black and white affair, and often make abusive claims.

 

[Charles S]

Ron, I hesitate to make comments about your room or gear because all of my comments are anecdotal. I only know what has worked for my room and every room is different. Every speaker is different. But I think of the room as a component just as I regard power cords, speaker cables, and IC's as components. The 1-meter AQ Dragon retails for as much as my MCD12000 (12K), looks like a component, and is a component.

The quality I like about Wilson speakers, is that they have a cookbook way of dialing in the Wilson speaker. Then the speaker must be fine-tuned to the room. I'm a layperson, but I have achieved a perfect sound to my ears, and I have never had anyone over to hear my system that did not leave amazed. Currently, Wilson will be sending a representative to my dealership in the spring for an event and he will also stop by to hear my system.

When I see Wilsons too close to the rear wall it causes me concern, like in Mike Fremer's room. When I see the XVX way out in a room 15-20 feet from the rear wall I wonder how much bass reinforcement they are getting. I have several test cd's that I use to balance my sound. In my room I have achieved the best 100 Hz note that I have ever heard in my room. I want a strong smooth bass beginning at 200 Hz extending down to 50 Hz, then to begin a gradual boost below 50 Hz that will finally produce about a 15-20 dB boost at 20 Hz and below extending down to 10 Hz.

I hear everything below 30 Hz and you will hear the 32 Hz note of Also Sprach Zarathustra, let me tell you. Brightness in a system can be a function of poor upper bass response as defined by the 60-200 Hz frequency range. In addition, there should be zero slap echo in your room. If you cannot clap loudly in front of your sofa or chair and not hear zero echo you have a significant problem, and this will ruin your midrange.

Then it is a matter of fine tuning your Wilson speaker to your room. I use a variety of absorbers, including room and echo tunes. My room will tolerate tremendous sound levels and still sound very balanced with zero distortion or dynamic compression. Consequently, the presentation sounds quite believable and never sounds loud even at extremely high SPL's. My sound remains neutral at live performance levels and never sounds bright.

If there is one quality that I don't like it is brightness. True, there are some recordings that are excessively bright, but most brightness is a function of your system and room. Vividness is not brightness. Vividness is more of a function of are you sitting in the front rows, middle rows, or even further back? I want vividness. I want the sensation of believing the performance being in my room.

Charles

Charles Updated System: Wilson McIntosh Audioquest

Amps: McIntosh: MC3500MKII (2); MC1.25KW (2); MC2.1KW An
Preamp: C-12000 An
Sources: MCD12000 An; MVP881; MVP851; MR87; Marantz 510LV; Lenovo Yoga laptop
Speakers: Wilson Chronosonic XVX
Sub-Woofer: Wilson Thor’s Hammer; Wilson ActivXO Stereo Electronic Crossover
Cables Main System AQ: WEL Signature speaker cables; 24’ balanced IC; balanced 1-meter Dragon IC ; WEL Signature digital, Coffee digital coaxial cables; Diamond optical (2); Diamond USB; Dragon (5 HC, 3 source cords); Thunder & Monsoon power cords
Cables Subwoofer System AQ: Redwood speaker cable; Wolf balanced subwoofer IC; Wind balanced IC to ActivXO; Hurricane HC; Firebird HC; Firebird Source; Dragon HC, power cords
Power Conditioners: AQ Niagara 7000; Niagara 5000 (3); (4) dedicated 20-amp lines.
Isolation: Wilson Pedestals; Bassocontinuo McIntosh Ultra Feet; X-material plinth
Cabinet: Double Custom Woodwork & Design (CWD)
Acoustic Treatments: Room and Echo Tunes

 

[cjfrbw]

So you're good at hearing some things better than others?

Idiosyncratic hearing leads to idiosyncratic advice. The dogmatism, too. Avoid these entities.

 

[microstrip]

(...) When I see Wilsons too close to the rear wall it causes me concern, like in Mike Fremer's room. When I see the XVX way out in a room 15-20 feet from the rear wall I wonder how much bass reinforcement they are getting. I have several test cd's that I use to balance my sound. In my room I have achieved the best 100 Hz note that I have ever heard in my room. I want a strong smooth bass beginning at 200 Hz extending down to 50 Hz, then to begin a gradual boost below 50 Hz that will finally produce about a 15-20 dB boost at 20 Hz and below extending down to 10 Hz. (...)

Charles S.,

You probably told us, but I can't find it in the XVX thread - what is the distance between the back of the XVX and the front wall in your system, as well as the length of your room ?

 

[pjwd]

[/QUOTE]

Yes, when using some panel speakers, like the SoundLab A1 Px I am using, flat walls become diffusors. Unfortunately people have notions of what is diffusion and absorption like it is a simple black and white affair, and often make abusive claims.

How does a flat diffuse

 

[microstrip]

How does a flat diffuse

Simple - the sound coming form the A1 Px large cylindrical panel is already extremely diffuse. The SoundLab's are full spectrum driven in the whole panel. It is the antithesis of a point like speaker - we should not ask if they are time coherent!

 

[pjwd]

Simple - the sound coming form the A1 Px large cylindrical panel is already extremely diffuse. The SoundLab's are full spectrum driven in the whole panel. It is the antithesis of a point like speaker - we should not ask if they are time coherent!

I see your point however the reflected sound is not diffused relative to the direct sound so you will get smearing if within the 10ms or so window.
I assume the soundlabs have less of a cancelation on the baffle plane given their curve than normal dipoles so you would expect strong reflections from side wall

 

[microstrip]

I see your point however the reflected sound is not diffused relative to the direct sound so you will get smearing if within the 10ms or so window.
I assume the soundlabs have less of a cancelation on the baffle plane given their curve than normal dipoles so you would expect strong reflections from side wall

Yes, we get strong smearing. I also own ESL 63 - a completely different sound perspective.

My point is that the way we look at surfaces depends on conditions. For example, we need a significant distance between the sound source and the diffusor before it starts working as a diffusor. In small rooms diffusors do not act as diffusors.