Ron’s New System

[russtafarian]

I had a very nice visit today from Russ (Russtafarian) and Steve Lefkowicz, a long-time Senior Contributing Reviewer for Positive Feedback.

Each of them played a bunch of their own records. Russ brought an Achromat record mat and replaced the stock Denon record mat.

I played Soular Energy on tape and Analogue Productions' Waltz for Debby on tape. Russ felt the tape of waltz for Debby sounded a little bit slow. Russ felt the vinyl had a little bit more upper midrange energy which gave the music a little bit more drive and a little bit more aliveness compared to the tape. He felt the tape sounded a bit too relaxed.

I like "Waltz for Debby" partly because it literally makes me relaxed. So I did not notice that the tape sounded a touch slow. I continue to find this The Tape Project tape magical, like I could walk up on stage and tap the musician on the shoulder.

I also played "Riders on the Storm" on tape and "Light My Fire" on a production master tape.

This particular The Doors The Doors tape, on the Studer, beat the DCC Compact Classics vinyl on the Denon. Previously the Analogue Productions 45rpm had beaten three other tapes of this title on a Telefunken M15.To the ears of all three of us thproduction master tape was clearer, and everything seemed more separated and just a bit more alive

Steve played an original pressing of Genesis' Selling England by the Pound.

Russ reported that he was hearing a little bit of a 2kHz emphasis on all records played. Generally he did not like it, but he thought it was beneficial for "Waltz for Debby."

I think I am hearing it as well, but I'm not sure. We are no longer seeing it on the frequency response chart.


View attachment 108606

As Russ mentioned, the human ear is so sensitive at that frequency that even a small emphasis might be subjectively noticeable, even if not objectively noticeable.

I could go back to playing with toe-in to see if that emphasis can be ameliorated with speaker adjustment, but it was very puzzling that all of the toe-in experiments I did with Don did not yield any apparent change in tonal balance. It is also interesting that Gary Koh, I believe, does not toe-in his Genesis Prime panels. I don't feel like playing with toe-in right now as the system is sounding very good to me. 96" x 30" x 1" absorption panels are on the way for me to play with on the front wall.

Thanks, Russ and Steve, for coming up and for a very fun listening session and dinner!

PS: I really should just lower the woofer level and re-screenshot the chart so the 20Hz to 150Hz region doesn't look so elevated.

Ron is a gracious host who allowed Steve and I to play some of our weird $h!t records like Shpongle and early King Crimson.

The highlight of the evening for me was tape playback. Every tape Ron played exuded tonal density and sounded gloriously lush. The Doors stuff pushed me towards blissful sensory overload. Dare I say the doors of perception were beginning to crack open?

Waltz for Debby did throw me for a loop. I'm familiar with the record, but I'm used to hearing it via hi-rez digital. My initial thought once "My Foolish Heart" settled in was that it sounded slow. But then "Waltz for Debby" sounded right. This bugged me enough that I had to check playback pitch. I pulled up the album on my iPhone via Qobuz and played it just long enough/loud enough to compare it to the tape. The tape was on pitch. Ron then played the LP and it was on pitch.

Waltz for Debby on tape sounded more relaxed than I've ever heard it from digital or vinyl. The tape was open and clear but didn't have the upper frequency energy I'm used to hearing. Maybe that's why I thought "My Foolish Heart" sounded slow? LP playback was more energetic and propulsive but didn't have the ease and flow of the tape.

My overall take on Ron's system is that while it has a little more energy in the 2-5kHz range than I'm used to, the way it allows music to flow into the bones and engage the imagination is pretty special.

 

[adyc]

Maybe I miss it, when will your AS2000 be installed?

 

[Argonaut]

Or perhaps even *Why* ?

 

[Alrainbow]

may the ask what sounds , instruments have the 2k peak to you ?

Audio Frequency Range: The 7 Frequency Zones You Must Identify

As a music producer, and especially as a mix engineer, it is absolutely vital that you are able to identify different frequency ranges just by listening.

www.soundgym.co

now I do see how you may feel. with iems or headphones this can be troublesome
but some add low frequencies to mask it
when I set up my Maggie’s I turned off the tweeters
it’s pretty amazing how harsh just Mids can be alone until you balance them.

 

[Ron Resnick]

My overall take on Ron's system is that while it has a little more energy in the 2-5kHz range than I'm used to, the way it allows music to flow into the bones and engage the imagination is pretty special.

Thank you very much for posting your interesting and insightful comments, Russ! I appreciate it!




The upper midrange is a bit of a puzzle. According to a pretty careful external microphone measurement the frequency response is declining starting at 1kHz. But as Don keeps saying there is a lot of energy coming out of that ribbon.

On the other hand, I think the tonal balance on tape is about 90% to 95% perfect to my ears. (The final 10% or 5% would be absorbing or diffusing a little bit of that 2kHz energy.) I think vinyl playback, especially, consistently emphasizes the upper midrange, as you hear as well.

Some absorption panels are arriving on Friday. I will try to begin to play with them over the weekend.

 

[Alrainbow]

One thing I’ve tried is to play one driver freq Alone
this may help to hear a driver that may show sounds not pleasing. One thing I don’t read is how other drivers may mask others. Like playing woofers louder or just changing there loudness this changes tone , but also may hide others not being balanced in there spectrum of sound

 

[pjwd]

Thank you very much for posting your interesting and insightful comments, Russ! I appreciate it!


View attachment 108715

The upper midrange is a bit of a puzzle. According to a pretty careful external microphone measurement the frequency response is declining starting at 1kHz. But as Don keeps saying there is a lot of energy coming out of that ribbon.

On the other hand, I think the tonal balance on tape is about 90% to 95% perfect to my ears. (The final 10% or 5% would be absorbing or diffusing a little bit of that 2kHz energy.) I think vinyl playback, especially, consistently emphasizes the upper midrange, as you hear as well.

Some absorption panels are arriving on Friday. I will try to begin to play with them over the weekend.

Ron
I know I have banged on about this before but a flat response from 20hz to 20khz is represented by the blue line.. the section above 1000hz os actually flat as shown by the red line... I believe what you need to try is to turn up the bass units by 5 db and deal with increased bass bump low down with your active absorbers to see if you can get something approaching the green line.

I suspect you will then not hear the 2khz as bright.
You might also be able to toe in the speakers more and get a more gradual roll off of top end without it sounding bright.
I have no idea of the off axis response but toing in certainly helps reduce direct reflections off rear wall where sound is beaming

Now of course if the device is measuring excess delayed energy in this region rather than a quasi anechoic plot your broadband absorbers may do the trick but I doubt they will be that targeted
Worth a crack I believe
Cheers
Phil

 

[cjfrbw]

I do not know what you're talking about here.

I thought they had a low frequency control, but it may just be a rumble cutoff at some fixed frequency. The Q control must be a woofer damping feature.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I thought they had a low frequency control, but it may just be a rumble cutoff at some fixed frequency. The Q control must be a woofer damping feature.

There is a rumble cut-off, but I keep it disabled.

The Q control adjusts with three options the slope at the fixed crossover frequency point between the woofer towers and the ribbon panels.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I believe what you need to try is to turn up the bass units by 5 dB

Unfortunately there's nothing I can do to hard boost the 200Hz to 750Hz range you are suggesting I elevate. The whole four tower system is just a giant two-way!

I think the Grado Epoch 3 cartridge, which has a moderately low sonic center of gravity, will help subjectively a bit in this regard.

 

[pjwd]

Unfortunately there's nothing I can do to hard boost the 200Hz to 750Hz range you are suggesting I elevate. The whole four tower system is just a giant two-way!

I think the Grado Epoch 3 cartridge, which has a moderately low sonic center of gravity, will help subjectively a bit in this regard.

Do you know what the xover slope is ... if low order it may have an effect quite a way up the range ... it seems strange to me that the speakers of this quality would have this dip.
It surely is worth turning the knobs and measuring to see what happens .. if it flattens out but adds unacceptable bottom end boost then you may have to tame that part rather than absorb 2000hz

Up to 1000hz is massivly important in creating a realistic presentation as you know ... most desired room curves have a rise in this area

It looks too broad to be a room cancellation

Of course this all relies on iPad being accurate
Getting a reasonably smooth plot is a good base to build on and apart from the dip it looks really good !

 

[KeithR]

Thank you very much for posting your interesting and insightful comments, Russ! I appreciate it!


View attachment 108715

The upper midrange is a bit of a puzzle. According to a pretty careful external microphone measurement the frequency response is declining starting at 1kHz. But as Don keeps saying there is a lot of energy coming out of that ribbon.

On the other hand, I think the tonal balance on tape is about 90% to 95% perfect to my ears. (The final 10% or 5% would be absorbing or diffusing a little bit of that 2kHz energy.) I think vinyl playback, especially, consistently emphasizes the upper midrange, as you hear as well.

Some absorption panels are arriving on Friday. I will try to begin to play with them over the weekend.

The distance to the front wall should solve your upper mids issue.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Do you know what the xover slope is ... if low order it may have an effect quite a way up the range ... it seems strange to me that the speakers of this quality would have this dip.
It surely is worth turning the knobs and measuring to see what happens .. if it flattens out but adds unacceptable bottom end boost then you may have to tame that part rather than absorb 2000hz

Up to 1000hz is massivly important in creating a realistic presentation as you know ... most desired room curves have a rise in this area

It looks too broad to be a room cancellation

Of course this all relies on iPad being accurate
Getting a reasonably smooth plot is a good base to build on and apart from the dip it looks really good !

Currently I am on the widest Q setting.

I will see what changes when I play with the acoustic absorption panels I expect to receive on Friday.

Thank you!

 

[Alrainbow]

my low freq cross over has a contour knob it changes the slop of the cross over curve but not the cross over point it’s flat to a bump in a sketch given
do you have the manual for these you can share a link

 

[Ron Resnick]

my low freq cross over has a contour knob it changes the slop of the cross over curve but not the cross over point it’s flat to a bump in a sketch given
do you have the manual for these you can share a link

The Q control adjusts with three options the slope at the fixed crossover frequency point between the woofer towers and the ribbon panels.

 

[Alrainbow]

The Q control adjusts with three options the slope at the fixed crossover frequency point between the woofer towers and the ribbon panels.

Ok same as my contour knob it does have a large effect on mine , I did not think it would lol

 

[Alrainbow]

Microsoft OneDrive

1drv.ms

Starts page 14

 

[Alrainbow]

it has some pics to show of course it took a long time to have patience and learn to hear what it was doing

 

[Alrainbow]

The more knobs the confusion becomes tough to solve. I learned a few ways to figure things out
Turning off drivers is a big help but I needed to understand how all drivers effect the sound above or below there freq

 

[cjfrbw]

I thought I read that Pendragon had some kind of adjustment that affected sub 100 and 100 to 300. Whether that is in the 'Q' control or not, I don't know, or if that was just misinformation. I suppose it could be misinformation

Having control over the 100 to 300 range would certainly be handy, since it is impinging on the localization of the sound rather than being in the strictly non-localizable range.

It is usually possible to hear a speaker element contribution an octave above and below the nominal crossover point before masking of one speaker element by the other occurs. That would be out to 500 hz for the woofer towers and down to 9 Khz for the tweeters. 500 hz is well into the localization midrange arena.

Having big ribbons perform the high frequencies may give a result, but usually larger drivers will have more sidebands the higher in frequency they go, which is why separate smaller elements for high frequency are good, to give a sense of speed and contrast. 18 khz is a bit high, but I gather they have no crossover and exploit the natural rolloff of the ribbon. The tweets are not 'line array' tweeters in the same sense as the ribbons or towers, so I suppose the adjustments are to match the seating position distance of a line array (less attenuated output with distance) with the more 'point source' tweeters.