Samsung enters the tube audio arena?

[Phelonious Ponk]

In the interest of full disclosure, in spite of some reliability problems (and a lot of after the fact complaints about customer service), Samsung TVs were always big sellers. The industrial design often made their betters look frumpy by comparison, and people like the picture in their TVs. This is much in the same way that people like the sound of speakers with a big lower midrange hump and/or an exaggerated treble.

The pros who calibrate TVs always made fun of them, but loved to calibrate them because they could make them look so much "better." Now in this case, "better" is much subtler -- duller colors, more detail in the blacks, less glaring contrast -- a calibrated Samsung looks more like life, less like...remember Kodachrome? In the end it's a matter of taste, and while calibration can make them better, it can only go so far.

Their LEDs are the worst offenders. I remember a TOTL we had that had all its guts in the base, leaving the screen a shiny, machined metal frame about the thickness of an iPad. Customers used to stand in front of that thing, which made everyone look sunburnt and a winter sky over Pittsburg look like midsummer in the Carribean, and talk about how beautiful the picture was. Talk about your sighted bias!

Now, if you find a good deal on one of their plasmas, good enough to get it calibrated for better than even money, a tech can really make one of those look good. The guy who did most of our calibrations used to say his job was to make a high-end Samsung look as good as a mid level Panasonic and make a high-end Panasonic indistinguishable from a Pioneer Elite.

Or something like that. He pulled it off most of the time.

Tim

 

[mep]

I never sold TVs for a living and never hung around TV techs. I love my Samsung LED so if that makes me a TV idiot that doesn't know crap from a Pioneer Elite-so be it. I owned a very expensive Pioneer Elite CD/DVD player that ate my CDs and I swore I would never own anything that said Pioneer Elite again. Plasma TVs are so cheap now they damn near give them away. If Samsung LED TVs suck, I guess I love suck.

 

[audioarcher]

I'm still using my 50" rear projection DLP Samsung TV. It may not be all that but I think the picture quality is better than many LCD's and plasma's I have seen. I don't know how it compares to the better TV's out there now but I'm happy with it for now.

 

[NorthStar]

-- Good stuff Tim.

My own plasma 3D HDTV is a 60" Samsung (with a green flashing pixel; stuck).
And I talked about it before in another thread of mine.

I also talked about two of my Samsung Blu-ray players ....

______________

Now, my Samy plasma, she's very good looking, and the picture as well. And it cost me very little.
But now, it's been over 18 months, you can buy the same HDTV, 3D, from Samsung, but the 2012 model, 60" plasma, for only $999! WoW! Just WoW! ...It's the E550 model by the way (PN59E550D1F).

Panasonic? Yeah that too, the ST50 Series, 60" plasma, 3D,
for about $200 more (Viera TC-P60ST50). Very good as well, if not better.

Sony? No plasma here, LEDs. But their Bravia XBR-55HX929 ($3,500 list) has good reviews.
...And their KDL-55HX850 ($2,600 list) as well. But they are LEDs, and cost a lot more money.

LG? Not as good as Samy or Pany, but their newer one, expensive too; the LG 55LM8600 (LED) has good reviews too, but more expensive as well.

Anyway, Samsung plasmas look fantastic (design & picture quality wise), they have tons of features, they are easy to calibrate, and they are simply the most affordable ones; even more than Panasonic.
* Panasonic has only a slight advantage on the black level (measurements), but not by much, and the material for that is very restricted anyway (most movies).

______________

No product is perfect, no people is perfect either; and people build those products. :b

A very important thing: reliability, or longetivity (durability too). ...And SUPPORT.
And that; Samsung, Panasonic, Sony, LG, ...they all have their deficiencies.

Reviews can only tell you a short experience, but owners (like me) can tell you the full picture. :b
At the end I did purchase a Samy plasma 3D HDTV. Perfect it ain't, neither Panasonic.

And plasma is what I am, a plasma man. ...I watch TV only in total (quasi) darkness.
I'm also an "active" 3D man; not "passive" 3D, not for me.

_______________

Now, tubes, in a Samsung new product; hey, they might be into something "warm".

 

[NorthStar]

I never sold TVs for a living and never hung around TV techs. I love my Samsung LED so if that makes me a TV idiot that doesn't know crap from a Pioneer Elite-so be it. I owned a very expensive Pioneer Elite CD/DVD player that ate my CDs and I swore I would never own anything that said Pioneer Elite again. Plasma TVs are so cheap now they damn near give them away. If Samsung LED TVs suck, I guess I love suck.

Hey Mark, not everybody sucks!

* How's your Onky 3010 baby doin'?

 

[treitz3]

If Samsung LED TVs suck, I guess I love suck.

Hehe, that gave me a chuckle. I guess I love suck as well . No complaints here. Then again, I'm about as far away from a videophile as one can be.

Tom

 

[bachrocks1685]

Korea versus Japan

The relationship between Korea and Japan is complex. The two cultures are remarkably the similar and remarkably different. However, for historical reasons, the average Korean is "angry" at Japan. For economic, cultural, technological, and other reasons, the average Korean admires Japan. I've lived in Japan, too, for six years. There, it's much simpler. The average Japanese doesn't dislike Koreans, and many admire their lower prices and like to visit for shopping, a closer version of Hong Kong, I guess. Anyhow, when I hear Samsung versus Pioneer TVs, I hear Korea versus Japan.

I don't have much light to shed on this, but the few thoughts I do have, I'd like to share. I worked at the Hyundai Research Institute in Yongin for a year. Located in the mountains a little south of Seoul, the institute comprised a handful or more of Hyundai companies, mostly dealing with automobiles, and I worked in their corporate training center as the academic coordinator for teacher training. They conducted many kinds of classes, but my little area was, of course, teaching English. I like to tell this story because it all sounds so grand; the reality, though, was less grand.

Anyhow, I got to meet a lot of interesting people there. Many companies sent their middle-level managers there for English training, and one group I remember worked for a company that manufactured PCBs. I can't remember the name of the company, but I imagine once I submit this message, it will pop into my head. In one of our discussions, they mentioned their company had hired an expert from Japan to work with their factory. And it wasn't that Japanese PCBs were necessarily better than Korean ones, but that Japanese quality control was far better than Korean, at least, with respect to their factory. This was six years ago, an eternity in technology time, but I wonder if this phenomenon isn't somehow related to Korean versus Japanese TVs and other electronic products. I don't know.

Another guy I met worked for Volvo Korea. He asked me about forks and spoons for dinner. I told him to use the spoon for the soup and the fork to stab the meat. He told me that he wanted to know about formal dining, where there were many spoons, forks etc. I said that he didn't have to worry about that as hardly anyone really needed to know that. His reply was hilarious. He said when we was at the dinner in Sweden with the King and Queen, there were so many forks and spoons he didn't know what to do. I was floored.

I love Korea (and Japan, too), but when I do a mental inventory of what I own, I find Japan. Our car is Toyota. Our refrigerator is Hitachi. Air conditioners? Daikin. Our laptops are Sony. My audio amp and preamp--tubes, thank you very much--are McIntosh (hardly Japanese, but until recently, owned by a Japanese company). And our Television, to no surprise, Japanese, too, a Pioneer plasma.

Of course, this in no way shape or form means Korean products are anything less than excellent. Not at all!

Would I buy a Samsung Tube audio iPod dock (or whatever it exactly is)? Well, if it sounded nice, I'd definitely give it a go. Like the Japanese, Koreans are as industrious as they are fastidious. And I'm too young to remember what people used to say about "inferior" products from Japan, but this case might well analogous. Really, though, I don't know well about these things.

But I'm very happy Samsung is doing this. I love tube audio. I have no idea about the technical measurements of tube versus SS. I only know I love the sound of my McIntosh gear. If Samsung approximates this, I'd give it a try.

cheers,
ron

 

[opus111]

Very interesting post there, thanks. Interesting particularly for me because I've also done corporate training in English, but in China. The QC thing as far as I'm aware stems from Statistical Process Control, the father of which AFAIK is W Edwards Deming, an American. But he was a prophet who was (as is typical) not accepted in his home country and his ideas were harnessed best by Japan. I learned about Deming from reading Peter Drucker, another smart cookie.

As regards technical measurements to distinguish between SS and valve, they're not currently widely available but I'll offer the hypothesis that some current tests that distinguish between DACs will be sensitive to the subjective differences. To wit - noise modulation.

 

[bachrocks1685]

-- Great post Ron, from memory alley. :b

Me too I have a lot of great souvenirs listening to all these bands, and seen some of them live too.

But furthermore, a lot of Rock music is inspired by Classical music, and Bach in particular.
I won't give you examples here because I know that you know that (ELP, Jethro Tull, King Crimson, Soft Machine, YES, etc.), and the Blues too (Mississippi, and Africa). ...The Rolling Stones are big on Blues.

I learned (self-taught) to play the steel flute (soprano and alto) when I was about thirteen-fourteen years old. I still play on occasions, and used to jam a lot with other musicians.

Some of my very first LPs were Classical music, and by all the great composers, and Bach was and still is my favorite. But I also love Beethoven, Chopin, Mozart, and all.

Rock music has Classical influences written all over. :b

Bob, I'm envious that you succeeded in learning the flute where I failed.

For me, the most immediate, successful, and natural use of classical music in rock is on the song "Light my fire" by the Doors (and by natural I mean it does not seem like classical music, only great rock). I still vividly recall sitting in a comfortable chair when I first heard that song. I was totally floored. I kept saying to myself, "OMG, this is Bach!!!!!" Really, Ray Manzerek's organ was so cool.

Two essential albums for me in this vein are the Moody Blues' Days of our future passed and ELO's Eldorado.

About classical, wow, that's a much bigger fish to fry. I think any music can be brilliant, but classical is brilliant and intellectual.

Bach is my favorite, too, although I can't live without Beethoven, Brahms, Liszt, Rachmaninoff, Tchaikovsky, or Chopin.

Let me stop here and continue in the music area when I get a chance. Looking forward to hearing all about your favorites!

thanks,
ron

 

[NorthStar]

-- I thought that the Pioneer Kuros (plasma HDTVs) were built (designed/assembled) in the USA.

Did someone lie to me?

_______________

-- "... The Kuro line debuted in 2007 and was phased out by 2010. ...
The Kuro line was initiated by Pioneer USA, not in Japan, and the Kuro engineering team was drawn from Pioneer's professional division." - Josh Kairoff (then Pioneer USA's director of display engineering)

________

BTW, my Samsung plasma HDTV was made in Tijuana, Mexico. ...I've been in that town too before, back in the mid seventies.

____

Never been in Bangkok, Thailand; would luv to. :b

 

[Keith_W]

Interesting perspective, Ron. I think the same goes for China vs. Japan, except that the Chinese hate the Japanese even more.

 

[NorthStar]

-- China, let's talk about manufacturing in China.

Do you guys know the working conditions in several manufacturing industries from China?
Do you know the lack of laws to protect the workers and the customers too?
Do you know the illegal toxic and deadly chemical substances they use in so many factories?
Did you check several reportages on how they dispose of those deadly chemicals?

I am so extremely sad about China's industrial "way of doing things" and ultimately killing the workers, and the customers too (illegal poison used in products delivered all around the world) that I'm simply asking you to google and see for yourselves. ...Just a quick example: check how they make jeans, and shoes, etc. ...What they use to make them, and what they put on those shoe boxes. You'll be so outraged that it'll change the way you see our world. I guarantee it.

- In Europe; France, GB, ... peoples have serious infections to their feet due to the chemicals put in shoe boxes. And those toxic chemicals can kill! It is so serious that here in this post it would take too much space to describe all the facts.

Apple, do they have factories in China? ...And how's the working conditions over there?
How many hours per day those women and young Chinese work?
And what's their salary?

Samsung, they have factories all over the world: Canada, USA, Mexico, South America, etc. How's their QC? How's the employe's conditions? How much do they invest in customer's support?

 

[opus111]

Oddly, I know it fairly well (I live in China) and I'm not at all outraged by it. What's that guarantee worth Bob?

 

[NorthStar]

-- Hey one thing important here Rich: never take it personal.

Just google.

 

[NorthStar]

=> http://www.greenpeace.org/eastasia/news/stories/toxics/2010/textile-pollution-xintang-gurao/

_________________________________________

 

[bachrocks1685]

Made in Japan

-- I thought that the Pioneer Kuros (plasma HDTVs) were built (designed/assembled) in the USA.

Did someone lie to me?

_______________

-- "... The Kuro line debuted in 2007 and was phased out by 2010. ...
The Kuro line was initiated by Pioneer USA, not in Japan, and the Kuro engineering team was drawn from Pioneer's professional division." - Josh Kairoff (then Pioneer USA's director of display engineering)

________

BTW, my Samsung plasma HDTV was made in Tijuana, Mexico. ...I've been in that town too before, back in the mid seventies.

____

Never been in Bangkok, Thailand; would luv to. :b

Bob, let me know if you come to town

By the way, here's a picture of the back of our made-in-Japan TV. If it's any consolation, it's not a Kuro, just the 720 standard model. And from the Spanish, looks like they might well ship these to Tijuana, too

But, I'm fairly certain my fridge, aircon, and car are all made here in Thailand; Japanese are the largest expat group here (I believe) because they have so many factories in Thailand.

When I was in Korea, I owned some NAD gear, made in Canada, I believe.

ron

 

[NorthStar]

Hi Ron,

That's why I made sure to say Pioneer Kuros.

* I own a bunch of Pioneer products (vintage receivers, DVD universal players, car stereos, speakers, etc., etc., etc.), and most of them are made in Japan. But some are made somewhere else.

NAD, is now Canadian based, true.

___________

If I come to Bangkok I'll let you know.

 

[bachrocks1685]

Interesting perspective, Ron. I think the same goes for China vs. Japan, except that the Chinese hate the Japanese even more.

Thanks Keith. And for the Chinese, that's sure a lot of bad karma, or should I say Feng Shui, directed at Japan...

 

[bachrocks1685]

Very interesting post there, thanks. Interesting particularly for me because I've also done corporate training in English, but in China. The QC thing as far as I'm aware stems from Statistical Process Control, the father of which AFAIK is W Edwards Deming, an American. But he was a prophet who was (as is typical) not accepted in his home country and his ideas were harnessed best by Japan. I learned about Deming from reading Peter Drucker, another smart cookie.

As regards technical measurements to distinguish between SS and valve, they're not currently widely available but I'll offer the hypothesis that some current tests that distinguish between DACs will be sensitive to the subjective differences. To wit - noise modulation.

Thank you for comment and information about QC and technical measurements, opus111. There sure is a lot to learn from reading posts.

I see you are in Hangzhou. I've never been to China, but a housemate of mine after college was a grad students from there, if it's the same place. He used to speak glowingly about the West Lake. Sound familiar?

How do you like living there? How's the food? I should visit the "mother country" at least once as Korean and Japanese culture have taken so much from "mama" in the past.

cheers,
ron

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I never sold TVs for a living and never hung around TV techs. I love my Samsung LED so if that makes me a TV idiot that doesn't know crap from a Pioneer Elite-so be it. I owned a very expensive Pioneer Elite CD/DVD player that ate my CDs and I swore I would never own anything that said Pioneer Elite again. Plasma TVs are so cheap now they damn near give them away. If Samsung LED TVs suck, I guess I love suck.

It makes you none of the above, Mark. Back in the day, lots of people loved Kodachrome. The weren't idiots; they loved Kodachrome. Kodachrome didn't suck; Kodachrome was a film that gave you really bright colors that lots of people loved.

Tim