Schiit, interesting name...more interesting products!

[jkeny]

You made an assertion, and I am asking you about it. If you know no knowledge in this area, and were just repeating what Al said, just say so and we will move on.

OK, so you just want to troll - not get to the core of what's behind Al's report - fine!

 

[Al M.]

So you have no inquisitiveness & don't want to hear what Al M has to say about the differences he hears with the Yiggy Vs dCs playing back that 'bad recorded' (his words) CD & yet on well recorded CDs he hears no difference between Yiggy & dCs?

Just want to troll instead?

Just for the record, I didn't say there was no difference on the well recorded CD that I mentioned. I said there was not a world of difference -- which is, well, different . I do think the Vivaldi is still better even on 'good' recordings. How much better? Only a head-to-head comparison could tell.

***

Just came back from a riveting reproduction through the Yggy of a recording of Shostakovich's 9th Symphony (on Chandos, Mariss Janssons cond.). It was sooo good and vivid, I'll go now repeat it the experience. After that I'll catch up with reading the rest of the hot debate here

 

[jkeny]

Just for the record, I didn't say there was no difference on the well recorded CD that I mentioned. I said there was not a world of difference -- which is, well, different . I do think the Vivaldi is still better even on 'good' recordings. How much better? Only a head-to-head comparison could tell.

***

Just came back from a riveting reproduction through the Yggy of a recording of Shostakovich's 9th Symphony (on Chandos, Mariss Janssons cond.). It was sooo good, I'll go now repeat it the experience. After that I'll catch up with reading the hot debate here

Here's what you said
"I heard the Berkeley Alpha Reference, the dCS Rossini and the dCS Vivaldi. What the Yggy can't do like these, as can't the standard Berkeley Alpha, is decode not so good digital recordings in a way that makes them sound much more highly resolved (I have a 1986 Hungaroton CD of Bartok's sonatas for violin and piano (Kremer/Smirnov) that sounded stellar on the first two of these DACs where I tried it on)."

Ok on good recordings you said the Yiggy probably sounded better than the dCs

I'm interested in this difference between good Vs bad recordings, even if others aren't & prefer to use it to troll

 

[Al M.]

Here's what you said
"I heard the Berkeley Alpha Reference, the dCS Rossini and the dCS Vivaldi. What the Yggy can't do like these, as can't the standard Berkeley Alpha, is decode not so good digital recordings in a way that makes them sound much more highly resolved (I have a 1986 Hungaroton CD of Bartok's sonatas for violin and piano (Kremer/Smirnov) that sounded stellar on the first two of these DACs where I tried it on)."

That's correct.

Ok on good recordings you said the Yiggy probably sounded better than the dCs

Erm, where did I say that? You mean the other way around, I suppose.

I'm interested in this difference between good Vs bad recordings, even if others aren't & prefer to use it to troll

Yes, one of those is the above:

https://www.amazon.com/Bartók-Two-Sonatas-Violin-Piano/dp/B000003049

I'll try a few more questionable ones and see if they sound different on my two DACs.

 

[PeterA]

Here's what you said
"I heard the Berkeley Alpha Reference, the dCS Rossini and the dCS Vivaldi. What the Yggy can't do like these, as can't the standard Berkeley Alpha, is decode not so good digital recordings in a way that makes them sound much more highly resolved (I have a 1986 Hungaroton CD of Bartok's sonatas for violin and piano (Kremer/Smirnov) that sounded stellar on the first two of these DACs where I tried it on)."

Ok on good recordings you said the Yiggy probably sounded better than the dCs

I'm interested in this difference between good Vs bad recordings, even if others aren't & prefer to use it to troll

I'm interested too. Perhaps Al can address the points you raise.

I've only directly compared three DACs in the same system during the same listening session with the same music: the Berkeley Ref DAC, a Spectral DAC and the dCS Rossini. I preferred the Rossini on all of the recordings that Al and I played. It made the notes sound convincing, complete and natural. It also had the highest level of resolution, with extremely low levels of digital artifacts, distortion or fatigue. I was able to forget about the system and enjoy the music. The other two DACs made me think about the flaws in the sound of the system and it was difficult to focus on the music.

I look forward to hearing the new Schiit in his system and directly comparing it to his Alpha 2 which I have heard many times.

 

[DaveyF]

Al, in your post #314, I thought you said that the Yggy didn't quite do Sax as well as some others...at least that's what I thought you meant. OTOH, like I said, the recording of the instrument is not commonly done well...at least in the digital realm, IMHO. If you have any of the JVC XRCD's of jazz, I think these are some of the best jazz recordings of jazz...and of the sax on digital. Try one of these recordings and please report back. I suspect you will be more than pleased. BTW, you are 100% right, the Sax can have different sounds, but I think most of the times it still sounds wrong on digital.

 

[jkeny]

I'm interested too. Perhaps Al can address the points you raise.

I've only directly compared three DACs in the same system during the same listening session with the same music: the Berkeley Ref DAC, a Spectral DAC and the dCS Rossini. I preferred the Rossini on all of the recordings that Al and I played. It made the notes sound convincing, complete and natural. It also had the highest level of resolution, with extremely low levels of digital artifacts, distortion or fatigue. I was able to forget about the system and enjoy the music. The other two DACs made me think about the flaws in the sound of the system and it was difficult to focus on the music.

I look forward to hearing the new Schiit in his system and directly comparing it to his Alpha 2 which I have heard many times.

Right, the simple explanation for why some DACs reveal flaws only on some recordings (what Al called 'bad' recordings or sax playback) I would contend is due to the non-linear distortions that are being revealed under certain circumstances. In other words, ask a system to process & replay girl with guitar & it's linearity won't be challenged - it's only when the soundfield being reproduced has a much more dense & dynamic soundfield that it can reveal some linearity issues. Or in the case of the sax, the harmonic structure of the sound envelope is complex & any small disturbance in the reproduction of this sound envelope causes our auditory perception to register a timbral issue i.e the sa doesn't sound EXACTLY like a sax should.

All of this is related to ASA & it's why measurements need to use test signals which exercise & reveal these non-linearities rather than simplistic test signals. Of course this is difficult & that's why auditory perception is paramount - we naturally analyse complex, dynamic audio signals & using our pattern matching auditory processing mechanisms are able to compare it to our stored sound patterns for real world sounds & sense when some playback is more realistic than another.

The most difficult non-linearities to nail down are exactly those which only arise when the system playback encounters a certain signal combination. That's why I'm interested in compiling a collection of sound examples CDs or snippets that people have found cause these non-linear audible issues on some playback systems but not on others - in other words, not 'bad' CDs that sound 'bad' on all systems (although maybe this would also be worthwhile as Frank (Fas42) would maintain that these are exactly the test material needed to weed out system playback issues)

 

[DaveyF]

Apparently Amir is no longer able to post. So with that said, I guess we will have to continue to follow Al M in order to get the scoop on the Yggy. I am beginning to think it is one heck of a DAC...and not just for the price. Would be very interesting to see if anyone has any experience comparing it in their systems to the Bryston BDA 3 DAC. I think these two ( the Yggy and the BDA3) are the DAC's to beat at the sub $10K price level.

 

[PeterA]

Apparently Amir is no longer able to post. So with that said, I guess we will have to continue to follow Al M in order to get the scoop on the Yggy. I am beginning to think it is one heck of a DAC...and not just for the price. Would be very interesting to see if anyone has any experience comparing it in their systems to the Bryston BDA 3 DAC. I think these two ( the Yggy and the BDA3) are the DAC's to beat at the sub $10K price level.

This is the idea that that other DAC thread tried to address. What exactly does a more expensive DAC get you? How does it sound different and is it better than a less expensive DAC and why? Does it just come down to sounding more "complete", more "natural" and with more resolution, or is it something else? And what about the whole redbook/transport versus hi rez file choice? Is there any consensus?

 

[Joe Whip]

Al, in your post #314, I thought you said that the Yggy didn't quite do Sax as well as some others...at least that's what I thought you meant. OTOH, like I said, the recording of the instrument is not commonly done well...at least in the digital realm, IMHO. If you have any of the JVC XRCD's of jazz, I think these are some of the best jazz recordings of jazz...and of the sax on digital. Try one of these recordings and please report back. I suspect you will be more than pleased. BTW, you are 100% right, the Sax can have different sounds, but I think most of the times it still sounds wrong on digital.

I have an Yggy and listen almost exclusively to jazz. Furthermore, I attend countless live jazz shows a year, like Stacey Kent tonight at Birdland, where I get to hear the real thing. The Yggy, IMHO, excels at everything, including sax. One gets a full, round sax sound. Different tenor sax have different tones and are easy to differentiate on the same recording. If you love sax, the Yggy will not disappoint. Btw, Stacey's husband, Jim Tomlinson, is a great tenor man.

 

[Al M.]

I have an Yggy and listen almost exclusively to jazz. Furthermore, I attend countless live jazz shows a year, like Stacey Kent tonight at Birdland, where I get to hear the real thing. The Yggy, IMHO, excels at everything, including sax. One gets a full, round sax sound. Different tenor sax have different tones and are easy to differentiate on the same recording. If you love sax, the Yggy will not disappoint. Btw, Stacey's husband, Jim Tomlinson, is a great tenor man.

Thanks, Joe, for that perspective. I may be hypersensitized to the saxophone issue to an extent that it blurs my judgment. Also, I will readily admit that, while I do have experience with live sax, it is far from as extensive as yours.

Different tenor sax have different tones and are easy to differentiate on the same recording.

Yes, the Yggy excels in rich differentiation of tone color. It is certainly not "tonally grey" -- far from it!

(The same holds true, BTW, for the Berkeley. In fact, a rich differentiation of tone color was one of the main criteria why I chose that DAC at the time over lesser DACs, which tended to muddle colors together.)

In any case, yesterday I was again bowled over by the dramatic, incisive vividness of the Yggy's presentation of music. Exciting times for digital, exciting times for music reproduction at the more affordable end of the spectrum!

***

I also LOVE the way the Yggy reproduces orchestral violins, and orchestral strings in general, on good recordings (all plain Redbook CD). I can't wait until I get DaveC's SMSG speaker cables to try which will certainly yield more improvements in that area, given my experience with his D4 interconnects. Tomorrow I'll also get the isolation transformer for the Yggy, which may extract yet more performance from the DAC.

 

[DaveC]

I'm curious how you guys are "feeding" the DAC? AFAIK this has a major influence on the sound and seems like it could skew results of listening tests...

I use a Sony HAP-Z1ES, and probably will keep that until DACs seem a lot less immune to what's feeding them. The whole server/streamer, etc, etc, etc. setup seems a bit ridiculous imo.

A friend just msg'ed me about his PSA DirectStream DAC, said that the latest updates made it sound incredible. It does seem like there are a lot of good choices without spending big $ these days.

BTW, the Sony does a great job of making poor recordings and mp3s sound ok, it's DSD upsampling is excellent imo. The Sony has also massively improved in SQ by firmware updates over when it first came out.

 

[Al M.]

I'm curious how you guys are "feeding" the DAC? AFAIK this has a major influence on the sound and seems like it could skew results of listening tests...

I use a Sony HAP-Z1ES, and probably will keep that until DACs seem a lot less immune to what's feeding them. The whole server/streamer, etc, etc, etc. setup seems a bit ridiculous imo.

Hi Dave,

there is a current discussion about Rhythm,

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?23390-Rhythm-just-rhythm!

where just this transport vs. server issue was discussed. I feed the DAC from a Simaudio/Moon 260 DT transport via AES/EBU connection (generally preferred by manufacturers) using an MIT Proline digital link.

(By the way, don't you sell a digital coax cable made from your D4?)

 

[DaveyF]

Another question...how many now believe that the computer server ( ala Mac or Pc) is now no longer suitable compared to the high-end server or some kind of dedicated transport? Dave, do you have any idea how the sound of your Sony HAP-Z1ES compares to the likes of a Mac or PC? A while back, I had a conversation with one of the better known digital designers, they believed that the best source in digital is still the old fashioned CD transport. He believed that the read of the pit in the disc was more accurate than either a rip or a download...since both are in his opinion a second generation itineration. I'm not sure if i would agree with the download scenario, but with the rip...definitely.

 

[Al M.]

A while back, I had a conversation with one of the better known digital designers, they believed that the best source in digital is still the old fashioned CD transport.

Davey, would you be able to tell us who that was? But if you think divulging it would not be appropriate I'd understand.

 

[DaveC]

Another question...how many now believe that the computer server ( ala Mac or Pc) is now no longer suitable compared to the high-end server or some kind of dedicated transport? Dave, do you have any idea how the sound of your Sony HAP-Z1ES compares to the likes of a Mac or PC? A while back, I had a conversation with one of the better known digital designers, they believed that the best source in digital is still the old fashioned CD transport. He believed that the read of the pit in the disc was more accurate than either a rip or a download...since both are in his opinion a second generation itineration. I'm not sure if i would agree with the download scenario, but with the rip...definitely.

Yes, but without the computer side of things being totally optimal... The Sony had just came out (this was some years ago) and I was able to test it vs my Schiit Bifrost Uber and an Auralic Vega. The Schiit was in a totally different league, not even close... it was harsh and closed-in vs the others. The Vega and HAP were very close though, Vega was a bit more relaxed sounding, Sony a tiny bit sterile but more neutral overall. Over the years Sony has upgraded the firmware many times and a few of the updates improved the sound quite a bit, at this point I have no doubt it would beat the Vega I tested... but that could change if the Vega had a better device feeding it or I used the XLR outs, which are better vs it's RCAs, but I have a SET amp. I went with the Sony because at the time the Vega was highly praised, the Sony was it's equal or better plus cheaper and a total stand-alone solution. The Sony also "levels the playing field" so to speak with it's outstanding DSD upsampling while I head larger differences in formats in the Vega.

I am currently considering a transport or a SACD/CDP to spin discs as well as take to show when I finally get my speaker ready. It turns out designing the speaker is the easy part, all the other stuff like branding, industrial design, CAD modeling, etc are what's killing me, lol...

Anyways, would love to test the Yggy as when I got the Bifrost it was a stopgap temporary measure until the totl Schiit DAC came out... but the Yggy was released years late and I couldn't deal with the Bifrost anymore, it might be ok for it's price but ultimately it's not overall good.

 

[DaveyF]

Davey, would you be able to tell us who that was? But if you think divulging it would not be appropriate I'd understand.

No Al, I don't think that would be appropriate.

Dave, from what I hear and the overall press that the Yggy is getting, it may be a real eye opener in your system. If I wasn't so heavily biased towards vinyl, it would be on my very short list.

 

[Al M.]

No Al, I don't think that would be appropriate.

Fully understand, thanks.

 

[jkeny]

Another question...how many now believe that the computer server ( ala Mac or Pc) is now no longer suitable compared to the high-end server or some kind of dedicated transport? Dave, do you have any idea how the sound of your Sony HAP-Z1ES compares to the likes of a Mac or PC? A while back, I had a conversation with one of the better known digital designers, they believed that the best source in digital is still the old fashioned CD transport. He believed that the read of the pit in the disc was more accurate than either a rip or a download...since both are in his opinion a second generation itineration. I'm not sure if i would agree with the download scenario, but with the rip...definitely.

I don't agree with this - rips are usually 100% error free - they re-read any bad sectors & use algorithms to ensure error free rips - they can even correct for CD scratches/flaws that CD audio players can't.

What often makes PCs worse sounding than CD players is because of electrical noise being communicated from the PC - ground loops currents, leakage currents & common mode noise - all cause the dynamics in music to be muted.
Happily these issues are now being addressed & PCs now easily sound better than the best CD audio players

 

[jkeny]

Yes, but without the computer side of things being totally optimal... The Sony had just came out (this was some years ago) and I was able to test it vs my Schiit Bifrost Uber and an Auralic Vega. The Schiit was in a totally different league, not even close... it was harsh and closed-in vs the others. The Vega and HAP were very close though, Vega was a bit more relaxed sounding, Sony a tiny bit sterile but more neutral overall. Over the years Sony has upgraded the firmware many times and a few of the updates improved the sound quite a bit, at this point I have no doubt it would beat the Vega I tested... but that could change if the Vega had a better device feeding it or I used the XLR outs, which are better vs it's RCAs, but I have a SET amp. I went with the Sony because at the time the Vega was highly praised, the Sony was it's equal or better plus cheaper and a total stand-alone solution. The Sony also "levels the playing field" so to speak with it's outstanding DSD upsampling while I head larger differences in formats in the Vega.

I am currently considering a transport or a SACD/CDP to spin discs as well as take to show when I finally get my speaker ready. It turns out designing the speaker is the easy part, all the other stuff like branding, industrial design, CAD modeling, etc are what's killing me, lol...

Anyways, would love to test the Yggy as when I got the Bifrost it was a stopgap temporary measure until the totl Schiit DAC came out... but the Yggy was released years late and I couldn't deal with the Bifrost anymore, it might be ok for it's price but ultimately it's not overall good.

Yes, "harsh & closed-in" is typical effect on the sound of the electrical noise issues coming from PC, if the DAC isn't paying particular attention to these issues.