SET amp owners thread

[jeff1225]

I'll take another shot at it using an example. At the beginning of Mogwai's "Kids Will Be Skeletons" you can hear some notes being played on a guitar at the left of the stage. That's the experience I've always had of the intro to this song. With the SIT-3 you experience a band member very deliberately plucking each string with the intention to convey something with his music. You also sense the time between the plucks and how long each pluck takes.

This is a great explanation of the SIT sound. I really couldn’t articulate it better. I listen mostly to jazz and you can hear the difference between cymbal hits to keep time or add accent better with the SIT than any amp I’ve ever owned.

 

[Exlibris]

I'll take another shot at it using an example. At the beginning of Mogwai's "Kids Will Be Skeletons" you can hear some notes being played on a guitar at the left of the stage. That's the experience I've always had of the intro to this song. With the SIT-3 you experience a band member very deliberately plucking each string with the intention to convey something with his music. You also sense the time between the plucks and how long each pluck takes.

I think this temporal element -- sensing the time musicians choose to take between notes and with notes (and nothing sounding rushed) contributes to this amp being mesmerizing on certain songs. I think it might be an element in what cjfrbw said above: "...makes me hypnotized to keep listening to what is coming next..."

 

[morricab]

I'll take another shot at it using an example. At the beginning of Mogwai's "Kids Will Be Skeletons" you can hear some notes being played on a guitar at the left of the stage. That's the experience I've always had of the intro to this song. With the SIT-3 you experience a band member very deliberately plucking each string with the intention to convey something with his music. You also sense the time between the plucks and how long each pluck takes.

Don’t know this band...have to check them out.
So, it sounds like you hear more of a sense of “action” with the SIT compared to the Allnic. That is one thing I really love with my setup is, for example, with piano there is the sensation of action and bRing there with the piano...not just notes in space but the sense of the machine making them...is that what you mean?

 

[Exlibris]

Don’t know this band...have to check them out.
So, it sounds like you hear more of a sense of “action” with the SIT compared to the Allnic. That is one thing I really love with my setup is, for example, with piano there is the sensation of action and bRing there with the piano...not just notes in space but the sense of the machine making them...is that what you mean?

I think that's part of it for sure. Would you say though that it is possible to have a stereo that gives one the sense of being with a piano but not necessarily with the pianist?

 

[cjfrbw]

I would say the Tokin Defisit (and push pull VFET) have more separation of the voices across and within the soundstage with greater intensity. SET has better articulation of the sculptural envelope characteristics within each voice. It doesn't mean that each type doesn't do both well enough.

If you have a close miked piece with large voices and instruments, my SET samples are probably better at giving tonal form to each voice within its own space aka a piece like Jan Garbarek's 'The Healing Smoke'.

If you have a lot of smaller instruments back into the stage, like an orchestra, then SIT can articulate them better as separate entities. Those solo voices back in the soundstage will come through with greater intensity than SET.

SET can have a certain vitality, freshness and airiness. If you like those sculptural characteristics, too, you might not find SIT a 'good enough' substitute. Might just come down to taste, speakers and kind of music.

This is with what I have in hand in my system. Like I said, I don't find the SIT a 'SET beater' nor would I seek such a thing, it is just different and valid in its own right. It's in a separate category from the usual SS vs. tube paradigm.

I know that with the SiT-3 reviewers state that the speakers need to be kept around 4-8ohms, and it isn't the toe stubbing power ingot that some audiophiles like. It won't drive 'everything' and needs a modicum of efficiency @ 18 watts @ 8 ohms and 30 watts @ 4 ohms or so.

 

[jeff1225]

I would say the Tokin Defisit (and push pull VFET) have more separation of the voices across and within the soundstage with greater intensity. SET has better articulation of the sculptural envelope characteristics within each voice. It doesn't mean that each type doesn't do both well enough.

If you have a close miked piece with large voices and instruments, my SET samples are probably better at giving tonal form to each voice within its own space aka a piece like Jan Garbarek's 'The Healing Smoke'.

If you have a lot of smaller instruments back into the stage, like an orchestra, then SIT can articulate them better as separate entities. Those solo voices back in the soundstage will come through with greater intensity than SET.

SET can have a certain vitality, freshness and airiness. If you like those sculptural characteristics, too, you might not find SIT a 'good enough' substitute. Might just come down to taste, speakers and kind of music.

This is with what I have in hand in my system. Like I said, I don't find the SIT a 'SET beater' nor would I seek such a thing, it is just different and valid in its own right. It's in a separate category from the usual SS vs. tube paradigm.

I know that with the SiT-3 reviewers state that the speakers need to be kept around 4-8ohms, and it isn't the toe stubbing power ingot that some audiophiles like. It won't drive 'everything' and needs a modicum of efficiency @ 18 watts @ 8 ohms and 30 watts @ 4 ohms or so.

This is a great post. The SIT-3 is not a SET, but it is on the SET end of the scale more than anything I've heard.

 

[morricab]

I would say the Tokin Defisit (and push pull VFET) have more separation of the voices across and within the soundstage with greater intensity. SET has better articulation of the sculptural envelope characteristics within each voice. It doesn't mean that each type doesn't do both well enough.

If you have a close miked piece with large voices and instruments, my SET samples are probably better at giving tonal form to each voice within its own space aka a piece like Jan Garbarek's 'The Healing Smoke'.

If you have a lot of smaller instruments back into the stage, like an orchestra, then SIT can articulate them better as separate entities. Those solo voices back in the soundstage will come through with greater intensity than SET.

SET can have a certain vitality, freshness and airiness. If you like those sculptural characteristics, too, you might not find SIT a 'good enough' substitute. Might just come down to taste, speakers and kind of music.

This is with what I have in hand in my system. Like I said, I don't find the SIT a 'SET beater' nor would I seek such a thing, it is just different and valid in its own right. It's in a separate category from the usual SS vs. tube paradigm.

I know that with the SiT-3 reviewers state that the speakers need to be kept around 4-8ohms, and it isn't the toe stubbing power ingot that some audiophiles like. It won't drive 'everything' and needs a modicum of efficiency @ 18 watts @ 8 ohms and 30 watts @ 4 ohms or so.

A lot of good stuff here. I would only say that with regard to SET and instruments separation at the back of the stage...it depends. Some are not so good but the best ones resolve this well and give the 3D pockets of space.

 

[cjfrbw]

The SIT-3 is not a SET, but it is on the SET end of the scale more than anything I've heard.

Yes, with Tokin Defisit, it is remarkable it can convey this quality with an all transistor chain, especially to an inveterate tube lover such as myself. Putting various DHT gain stages in between doubles down.

 

[Exlibris]

And how does that contrast with the Allnic? I haven’t heard the ones you have thus my curiosity (not that I would be giving up my Aries Cerat Genus ).

I think the SIT-3 is broken in now so I played both amps today to do a comparison.
I find the Allnic more beautiful sounding when recordings aren't great. Voices especially come out softer, sweeter, and rounder, and you can fall into the song more easily.
The SIT-3 conveys more information. With the Allnic you may hear a really nice warm saxophone over by the right speaker but with the SIT-3 you are likely to get a better sense of the person playing the sax, an idea of the whole instrument rather than just the sound coming out of it, and exactly where that person is in relation to all the other band members.
Going back to the "Kids will be skeletons" example -- on the Allnic the guitar intro sounded wonderful and you just turn off your mind and enjoy it; on the SIT-3 you can tell exactly which string is being plucked on each note and exactly how hard or soft it is being plucked. And with that, you get a really good sense of what the guitarist is feeling or intending musically.
It may sound like I'm saying the Allnic is "tubey" sounding and the SIT-3 is cold and analytical. That isn't the case at all. I'm just highlighting the differences. The amps are more similar than they are different. If I did an A-B comparison for a non-audiophile I bet he would say "they both sound great and I can hardly hear the difference."

 

[Exlibris]

I think the SIT-3 is broken in now so I played both amps today to do a comparison.
I find the Allnic more beautiful sounding when recordings aren't great. Voices especially come out softer, sweeter, and rounder, and you can fall into the song more easily.
The SIT-3 conveys more information. With the Allnic you may hear a really nice warm saxophone over by the right speaker but with the SIT-3 you are likely to get a better sense of the person playing the sax, an idea of the whole instrument rather than just the sound coming out of it, and exactly where that person is in relation to all the other band members.
Going back to the "Kids will be skeletons" example -- on the Allnic the guitar intro sounded wonderful and you just turn off your mind and enjoy it; on the SIT-3 you can tell exactly which string is being plucked on each note and exactly how hard or soft it is being plucked. And with that, you get a really good sense of what the guitarist is feeling or intending musically.
It may sound like I'm saying the Allnic is "tubey" sounding and the SIT-3 is cold and analytical. That isn't the case at all. I'm just highlighting the differences. The amps are more similar than they are different. If I did an A-B comparison for a non-audiophile I bet he would say "they both sound great and I can hardly hear the difference."

It's as if the Allnic is always, in the most pleasant way, hinting at a deeper truth. With the SIT-3 you're going to hear that deeper truth and, just like in real life, that isn't always what you want. Imagine a beautiful actress that is perfectly lit in a scene; that's likely a perfect representation as is -- you don't want a deeper truth.

 

[guf]

I do some pretty woo woo stuff after living here in san francisco for 30 years. I’m not sure how to interpret all this. You guys are blowing my mind! Thanks.

 

[acg]

Just requesting all SET amp owners to mention their amps and speakers.

Dual mono, 6 channel a side single ended triodes direct driving (no crossovers) a ribbon tweeter, three horns 100Hz/250Hz/400Hz, sealed bass channel plus a spare channel for mid-bass once room integration is complete. All channels circa 110dB/w/m except bass which is 100dB/w/m.

Room response is flat to 18Hz. Bass channel presents a 1.1ohm load and is driven by 9w SET with enormous custom wound output transformer. Channel gives full 9w power with -1dB roll-off at 6Hz. Other SET channels are a mixture of two stage, DHT and single stage depending on the transducer they are driving with outputs of 1.5w - 17w.

Compared with single SET amps driving a particular loudspeaker system, or even SET amps with bass passed to other amplifier, there is absolutely no comparison...the failings of SET's in those systems just dissapear with multiple channels free of interference from the others. Direct driving the transducers really helps here as well. Soft bass, dynamics so real and transients so right with energy and time to spare. Dead quiet with my head in the horns, a soundstage and imaging that is immersive and more detail retrieval, intonation and fleshing out of sounds than many may think possible but not bleached or bright or fatiguing. I often listen 10 or more hours day while working. Loud.

The true beauty of this system though is that there are no distortion or other cues to tell you to stop turning it up. Listening at concert levels (i.e. 105dB peaks) is wonderful regardless of genre of music but you can go higher if you like. True to the Fletcher-Munson or Equal Loudness curves, the louder this system plays the softer the music sounds because it is actually capable of scaling up the bass with the mids and treble into spl territory where we can actually hear the bass frequencies as well as just feel them.

Not for everyone though. System weighs more than my car.

 

[morricab]

Dual mono, 6 channel a side single ended triodes direct driving (no crossovers) a ribbon tweeter, three horns 100Hz/250Hz/400Hz, sealed bass channel plus a spare channel for mid-bass once room integration is complete. All channels circa 110dB/w/m except bass which is 100dB/w/m.

Room response is flat to 18Hz. Bass channel presents a 1.1ohm load and is driven by 9w SET with enormous custom wound output transformer. Channel gives full 9w power with -1dB roll-off at 6Hz. Other SET channels are a mixture of two stage, DHT and single stage depending on the transducer they are driving with outputs of 1.5w - 17w.

Compared with single SET amps driving a particular loudspeaker system, or even SET amps with bass passed to other amplifier, there is absolutely no comparison...the failings of SET's in those systems just dissapear with multiple channels free of interference from the others. Direct driving the transducers really helps here as well. Soft bass, dynamics so real and transients so right with energy and time to spare. Dead quiet with my head in the horns, a soundstage and imaging that is immersive and more detail retrieval, intonation and fleshing out of sounds than many may think possible but not bleached or bright or fatiguing. I often listen 10 or more hours day while working. Loud.

The true beauty of this system though is that there are no distortion or other cues to tell you to stop turning it up. Listening at concert levels (i.e. 105dB peaks) is wonderful regardless of genre of music but you can go higher if you like. True to the Fletcher-Munson or Equal Loudness curves, the louder this system plays the softer the music sounds because it is actually capable of scaling up the bass with the mids and treble into spl territory where we can actually hear the bass frequencies as well as just feel them.

Not for everyone though. System weighs more than my car.

Awesome. Pics please... i run one of my systems full active with a SET for each driver as well but it is only a two_way.

 

[matakana]

It's as if the Allnic is always, in the most pleasant way, hinting at a deeper truth. With the SIT-3 you're going to hear that deeper truth and, just like in real life, that isn't always what you want. Imagine a beautiful actress that is perfectly lit in a scene; that's likely a perfect representation as is -- you don't want a deeper truth.

But is the emotion there, is it able to bring you to tears?

 

[Exlibris]

But is the emotion there, is it able to bring you to tears?

The emotion is there with both of the amps.

 

[anubisgrau]

We obviously all hear different. I owned SIT-3 for several months and it didn't show to be worth staying in the house. Although a 300b SET by Thomas Mayer (on of the earlier ones) is my main amp, I tend to keep other amps I like and put them back in the system from time to time, like Hiraga L'Audiophile 20 Class A, which is my solid state benchmark. I really wanted to like SIT-3 but just failed. I found First Watt F3 closer to SET sound virtues (in a good way) than SIT-3, which sounded pretty flat in my system but also in few other systems with top level SET amps. Sold it, didn't lose anything due to big demand.

 

[jeff1225]

We obviously all hear different. I owned SIT-3 for several months and it didn't show to be worth staying in the house. Although a 300b SET by Thomas Mayer (on of the earlier ones) is my main amp, I tend to keep other amps I like and put them back in the system from time to time, like Hiraga L'Audiophile 20 Class A, which is my solid state benchmark. I really wanted to like SIT-3 but just failed. I found First Watt F3 closer to SET sound virtues (in a good way) than SIT-3, which sounded pretty flat in my system but also in few other systems with top level SET amps. Sold it, didn't lose anything due to big demand.

Can you tell us the other components and speakers you own.

 

[anubisgrau]

Can you tell us the other components and speakers you own.

Speakers: Oris Swing MkII
Amps: Thomas Mayer 300b/ Jean Hiraga La Maison de L'Audiophile 20
Preamp: Silver AVC by eng. Ferenc Lazar / Intact Audio (Dave Slagle) Copper AVC
Phono Preamp: Shishido LCR by Solaja Audio / Pete Millet LR DIY
Analog: Garrard 301 by Martin Bastin with Fidelity Research FR64fx
Analog: Garrard 401 in Ferenc Lazar solid wenge plinth with SME 3012/2
Cartridges: SPU Spirit/ Sugano-San Koetsu Black revisited by eng. Salai/ Miyajima Shilabe
Step Up Transformers: Tango MCT 999/ Ortofon T-5000/ Lumiere SUT/ Tribute SUT
Digital: Shigaclone CDT by Ferenc Lazar
Digital: DAC Lampizator Amber II
Wires: of sufficient length

 

[jeff1225]

Speakers: Oris Swing MkII
Amps: Thomas Mayer 300b/ Jean Hiraga La Maison de L'Audiophile 20
Preamp: Silver AVC by eng. Ferenc Lazar / Intact Audio (Dave Slagle) Copper AVC
Phono Preamp: Shishido LCR by Solaja Audio / Pete Millet LR DIY
Analog: Garrard 301 by Martin Bastin with Fidelity Research FR64fx
Analog: Garrard 401 in Ferenc Lazar solid wenge plinth with SME 3012/2
Cartridges: SPU Spirit/ Sugano-San Koetsu Black revisited by eng. Salai/ Miyajima Shilabe
Step Up Transformers: Tango MCT 999/ Ortofon T-5000/ Lumiere SUT/ Tribute SUT
Digital: Shigaclone CDT by Ferenc Lazar
Digital: DAC Lampizator Amber II
Wires: of sufficient length

Nice system, I'd love to see some pictures! Are your speakers 16 ohms?

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

I heard them at Berts years ago, when I picked up my matrix AG Trio basstowers