SET amp owners thread

[microstrip]

Isn’t negative feedback unnatural?

The negative feedback myth has been debunked long ago. We can find many excellent articles on it the net e.g. https://www.hifisonix.com/articles/the-case-for-feedback/ Surely they need critical reading and crossing with other perspectives.

The reason for the subjective differences between very good measuring amplifiers must be found elsewhere. But many audiophiles are firm believers that Occam razor and voodoo are the only way to the "magic2 ...

 

[microstrip]

(...) When David's disciples repeat any of his maxims I think it's appropriate to give David credit for the point -- as you are doing here -- and not allow it to seem like it is original thinking.

Most of what DDK wrote (his maxims, as you say) has been said by other people long before WBF existed ...

BTW, I have met people who shared the Natural Sound (TM) preference and never heard about DDK.

 

[bonzo75]

Totally.

I love the wholly unnatural sound of my Octave tube amp, which employs modest feedback.

Trouble is, the Octave amp sounds significantly superior to my old parallel push-pull triode 2A3 monoblocks (15 W/ch), which had neither global nor local feedback, as confirmed by a technical expert who examined them. And dare I say, the Octave sounds more "natural". Wholly unnaturally natural, that is.

Digital and negative feedback counter cancel to make a positive feedback on forums

 

[mtemur]

I should start by saying that the Lamm ML2.0 and 2.1 are fantastic-sounding amplifiers — I love their tone and color.

That said, bass is not the strongest virtue of the Lamm 2.1. There is some misleading information circulating about this. The Lamm 2 does not control bass as well as other, better SET designs. I know this very well because I have heard it multiple times and made direct comparison. For example, the NAF 845 is much better at controlling bass, though I still prefer the Lamm’s overall sound. The Air Tight 2211 is another good example that surpasses the Lamm in bass control. The Kondo Ongaku also controls bass better while offering an even more exotic tone. The Audio Note UK Ongaku has excellent bass control as well, but I’m not sure if it is clearly better than the Lamm or the opposite. The AN UK Ongaku has such a sweet tone that you could spend the rest of your life with it without ever thinking of replacing it — but in my opinion, the Lamm offers a more realistic tonal character.

When an amplifier cannot properly control a bass driver, it can sometimes be mistaken for greater bass extension because the driver continues to move. However, producing bass is not as important as stopping the driver when necessary. The best SETs I have heard in terms of proper bass control are the Komuro 212s and the Kondo Kaguras.

 

[Amir]

Yes, as I wrote above this is one of David's maxims. It makes some sense to me. My quibble with Peter was that it does not mean everything else automatically falls into place, if something else is unbalanced or emphasized or unnatural.

When David's disciples repeat any of his maxims I think it's appropriate to give David credit for the point -- as you are doing here -- and not allow it to seem like it is original thinking.

I always mention the source of information because I believe when I learn something from David or Romy or Jim Smith or … then I should respect these experts and the minimum thing that I should do is mentioning the name of David or …

I really respect if I learn anything from anybody.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Most of what DDK wrote (his maxims, as you say) has been said by other people long before WBF existed ...

BTW, I have met people who shared the Natural Sound (TM) preference and never heard about DDK.

I myself share the natural sound philosophy. I just don't buy into every single element of David's version of it. I personally think David is right about many, many things in audio.

Natural sound as articulated by David is a guiding philosophy of mine. I just do not adhere to every single individual element of it.

 

[Amir]

I should start by saying that the Lamm ML2.0 and 2.1 are fantastic-sounding amplifiers — I love their tone and color.

That said, bass is not the strongest virtue of the Lamm 2.1. There is some misleading information circulating about this. The Lamm 2 does not control bass as well as other, better SET designs. I know this very well because I have heard it multiple times and made direct comparison. For example, the NAF 845 is much better at controlling bass, though I still prefer the Lamm’s overall sound. The Air Tight 2211 is another good example that surpasses the Lamm in bass control. The Kondo Ongaku also controls bass better while offering an even more exotic tone. The Audio Note UK Ongaku has excellent bass control as well, but I’m not sure if it is clearly better than the Lamm or the opposite. The AN UK Ongaku has such a sweet tone that you could spend the rest of your life with it without ever thinking of replacing it — but in my opinion, the Lamm offers a more realistic tonal character.

When an amplifier cannot properly control a bass driver, it can sometimes be mistaken for greater bass extension because the driver continues to move. However, producing bass is not as important as stopping the driver when necessary. The best SETs I have heard in terms of proper bass control are the Komuro 212s and the Kondo Kaguras.

1- Bass control is different to proper bass reproduction
2- bass of lamm should be viewed with proper match speaker, you can not connect 18w lamm to all speakers and start judging the sound

 

[Ron Resnick]

It is nice to see David Karmeli’ knowledge and experience being appreciated on this forum.

I agree! I have said many, many times that I consider to be David a extremely talented and experienced turntable designer and vinyl playback expert. I have said many times that I consider him to be literally the world's leading expert on the SME 3012R tone arm. David is a fantastic and world class analogue playback set up expert.

David truly is an audio "guru." The term is proof of great accomplishment in vinyl playback and is a compliment, not something pejorative.

Referring to his customers and friends as “disciples” is, in my opinion, wholly inappropriate, even more so at this time of year. I see you chiming in and joining the others who refer to DDK as a guru, the leader of a cult, a puppet master, and his customers as disciples and puppets. I expect better from you as a forum owner, reviewer, dealer, and member of the industry. At least you don’t giggle uncontrollably.

I respect that you disagree, but I think "disciple" is exactly the accurate term with respect to David's closest customers (including you, Tim, Amir) who have adopted David's audio philosophies and maxims in their entirety, and for whom David has been an enormously valuable mentor, and who then go out and disseminate David's philosophies and maxims. I have no idea why you were sensitive to the term, but "disciple" is exactly the correct characterization.

Just out of curiosity is there a single David audio philosophy or maxim with which you do not agree and have not adopted?

Finally while I don't articulate it exactly the way it is described in David's maxim I have posted many times about the importance to me of a "low sonic center of gravity" rising from the bass through the lower midrange. I believe this is where much of the music "lives." Without getting the range of about 20 Hz to about 400 Hz correct it is difficult for the system to sound natural.

I substantially agree with David's maxim about this topic. I agree with how Tim articulated this in his post several posts above.

 

[LL21]

...Finally while I don't articulate it exactly the way it is described in David's maxim I have posted many times about the importance to me of a "low sonic center of gravity" rising from the bass through the lower midrange. I believe this is where much of the music "lives." Without getting the range of about 20 Hz to about 400 Hz correct it is difficult for the system to sound natural. I agree with how Tim articulated this in a post several posts above.

1- Bass control is different to proper bass reproduction
2- bass of lamm should be viewed with proper match speaker, you can not connect 18w lamm to all speakers and start judging the sound

I agree with this...my focus on bass, subs enhancing and working with mains and the respect I have for Gryphon's 'house sound' is probably all tied together on this fundamental preference.

 

[Amir]

Ron, I learned from David and I believe he is expert but there are many things in my audio activity that David does not like it. For example I have TAD system and David does not like my TAD system.
I use solidstate TAD amplifier and David does not like it. I use digital playback but David prefer Analog playback.
Romy has his own audio rules , Jim Smith has his own audio rules. David has his own audio rules. I have my vision, Peter and Tima have their visions. Tima uses GPA turntable but David does not like GPA.

I think all of us have different mind/idea .

 

[Elliot G.]

Finally while I don't articulate it exactly the way it is described in David's maxim I have posted many times about the importance of a low sonic center of gravity fundamental rising from the bass through the lower midrange. I believe this is where much of the music "lives." Without getting the range of about 20 Hz to about 400 Hz correct it is difficult for the system to sound natural.

This is the major point of speaker positioning which seems sometimes to be so controversial on WBF. I don't know much about DK other than his attacks on people here on WBF and my short lived battle with him over HP but trust me he is far from the first person to discuss this. This goes back to my initial engagement with audio from the days of Dahlquist, Infinity, Magnepan, Quad and HP. These discussions and set up experiments set the foundation of all high end audio.

 

[microstrip]

I myself share the natural sound philosophy. I just don't buy into every single element of David's version of it. I personally think David is right about many, many things in audio.

Well, I would like to know exactly on what you agree and what you disagree.
In my naive view, your practice completely disagrees with most David told us.

Natural sound as articulated by David is a guiding philosophy of mine. I just do not adhere to every single individual element of it.

Interesting.

 

[mtemur]

1- Bass control is different to proper bass reproduction

Tell me how it’s different. How it’s possible to properly reproduce bass when it is not controlled?

bass of lamm should be viewed with proper match speaker, you can not connect 18w lamm to all speakers and start judging the sound

Isn’t the Diesis Roma a proper match? Could you please name some current-production speakers that are a good match for Lamm?

I’ve shared my experience, and I think I should emphasize again: the Lamm ML2.1 is a great amplifier. That doesn’t mean it’s the best, or the best at bass. If anyone has better and real-world experience/comparisons with specific examples, I would be happy to learn. But please, not “I heard someone said blah blah.”

 

[Ron Resnick]

Isn’t Diesis Roma a proper match? Please name the speakers in current production that are proper matches for Lamm.

I'm a huge fan of Lamm electronics, so I think Lamm would likely be amazing on any appropriate sensitivity and appropriate impedance speaker.

 

[morricab]

I think when the bass is right, all else falls into place.

This is also where the Aries Cerat amps excel. The highs also excel because the winding techniques used on the transformers overcome the issues usually seen with using a large iron core to avoid saturation at bass frequencies.

 

[Amir]

Tell me how it’s different. How it’s possible to properly reproduce bass when it is not controlled?


Isn’t the Diesis Roma a proper match? Could you please name some current-production speakers that are a good match for Lamm?

I’ve shared my experience, and I think I should emphasize again: the Lamm ML2.1 is a great amplifier. That doesn’t mean it’s the best, or the best at bass. If anyone has better and real-world experience/comparisons with specific examples, I would be happy to learn. But please, not “I heard someone said blah blah.”

One example is most high feedback high power solidstate amplifiers can drive bass woofers easily but the bass is not proper so proper bass is different to drive. Yes drive is necessary for proper bass but it is not all the story.

I respect your experience but my experience shows I should not trust audiophiles experience. I wrote about my reasons in my Audio Critique topic

 

[microstrip]

(...) so I think Lamm would likely be amazing on any appropriate sensitivity and appropriate impedance speaker.

Curious that every one writes it, but no one dares to point exact brands and models, except Peter and Tima owned speakers ... Is the Karma Exquisite "appropriate sensitivity and appropriate impedance"?

 

[Argonaut]

I'm a huge fan of Lamm electronics, so I think Lamm would likely be amazing on any appropriate sensitivity and appropriate impedance speaker.

LMAO ….

 

[PeterA]

This is the major point of speaker positioning which seems sometimes to be so controversial on WBF. I don't know much about DK other than his attacks on people here on WBF and my short lived battle with him over HP but trust me he is far from the first person to discuss this. This goes back to my initial engagement with audio from the days of Dahlquist, Infinity, Magnepan, Quad and HP. These discussions and set up experiments set the foundation of all high end audio.

Elliot, I completely agree that once the gear is carefully selected, the set up experiments annd results are critical for achieving a system’s full potential and maximizing the listening experience.

I have had both Jim Smith and David Karmeli in my room. I think they are interested in the same end result, namely, listener engagement. Their approaches toward set up are fairly different.

 

[Argonaut]

In a purist set circuit, the last capacitors and resistors/coils of the power supply before the tube play a major role, because the music signal is modulated the operating voltage. Of course, the OPT also plays a role; its quality determines the control of the speaker and the amplifier's bandwidth at the output winding (internal resistance).

Yup … the winding topology of the Output Transformer and the sum of its parts are fundamental to SET amplification.