Shakti is back to Digital ( Innuos, Roon, Brinkmann)

[christoph]

c/ exequo SGM first version and Lampizator Superkomputer

Which Version of the SK was it?
The one with the peaking out copper air cooler or the closed one with the active cooler?

Can you elaborate a little more about the sonic treats of each of the contestants?

 

[shakti]

I am in favour of native palyaback be it hires pcm or dsd files, do not like converted and upsampled files.
Jus my two cents.

this is an interesting observation, my preferred DACs in the past were NOS DASc, like Kondo or Audio Note.

With Roon there is now a very powerful DSP Engine , so I tried around.

In the Roon knowledge base, you can find the Roon comment, that the effect of Roon upsampling depends on the DAC used.
Some DACS in the higher price region do have a very powerful upsampling, with unique algorithm, others do no oversampling or only the standard "in chip" upsampling.

In the white paper of my Brinkmanm Nyquist MKII DAC it is written, that the DAC is using a a 6core external engine for upsampling of PCM files. All files will go up to maximum range (352,8 or 384 khz).

DSD is native playing.

First step was, to compare the Brinkmann regarding LAN and USB connection.

In my set up, the USB connection was clearly better, but that might change depending on the cables in use.
All of the following listenings were done with a RidgeStreet Audio Poima USB cable.

Looking into the Roon DSP Engine, you have a lot of choices, so the first thing was, to switch it off.

Unfortunately the result was not satisfying at all, all the energy on the lower mids got lost, so I had to go the complicated route.

Next trial was, that I listened to the different filter settings. the "precise minimal phase" is my current preferred filter. As default Roon is using the "smooth minimal phase" filter, which is a nice but little boring sounding filter, giving a kind of warm colouration .

Than I checked the upsampling capability of the Roon DSP and sent the PCM files with max upsampling to the Nyquist, which would mean, the the DAC internal upsampling step has nothing to do.

Interestingly I lost the micro detail level of information.

Using the Nyquist internal upsampling stage and native PCM in Roon is much better overall.

Than I tried to convert all files in Roon to DSD and to send it to the Nyquist (as the DAC has a dedicated DSD path ).

This was again not the way to go (for me), the music lost the inner integration, lost micro details again and a "pseudo analogness" in terms of a warm and rich flavor was added.

Than I did it the other way round and converted my DSD files to High Res PCM. Interestingly this was working fine, the difference to native DSD playing is audible, but very small. The sonic nature of the file is not changed.


So my conclusion so far is, that I leave the Roon DSD engine switched on to get the "precise minimal phase" filter and to send all files in their native resolution and format to the Nyquist. giving the internal Nyquist signal processing the preferred choice.

This story will continue, as the German winter is just starting

 

[marslo]

Which Version of the SK was it?
The one with the peaking out copper air cooler or the closed one with the active cooler?

Can you elaborate a little more about the sonic treats of each of the contestants?

Will try, very busy time at work.

 

[christoph]

Will try, very busy time at work.

Take your time. No worries.

 

[Fohlenfan]

Hi Jürgen, shortly before you picked the Nyquist with the Innuos at my home i tried the Settings from the Hifistatement articel attached. Maybe you like to try that. I‘m not able to say which Settings will Sound best. Only thing i can say is, that the Nyquist is really a Great dac. The Most analog Sound i get out of a digital Equipment ever. Many Greetings

 

[CKKeung]

e

10 years ago I started my digital journey to streaming, using iTunes and La Rosita Streaming interfaces. All my files were ripped in WAV, so I was ending up to add Meta Data at my own.
The upcoming possibility of online streaming (like Tidal) made my digital set up obsolete, as it is impossible for Apple to allow mixed playlists of Tidal and Harddisc. The world of the Linn streamers was my answer, so I was able to use my iTunes directory and Tidal plus!!! High Res files which iTunes is still not capable of.

But the usability of all the different Apps were just not satisfying, after all the years with the smooth iTunes world.
Then came the point, were my 8TB NAS was faling while doing a back up and I list the majority of my files.

I decided to just listen to CD and to my favorite source, to analog.
For more than a year, my Lampizator Golden Gate DAC was nearly not playing any music, I also have to say, that I started to get bored with all the tube rolling on the GG, I was missing a "neutral reference" if such a source is possible at all.

On the other hand, I had (have) a lot of fun with my analoge set up.
But after this year, I started to miss some of my music, as not available on Record.

Visiting friends, I looked into their digital set ups and found out, that the most of them are using Roon as control software and that the time of standard NAS seems to be over. A dedicated Music Server is now the must be.

It became clear to me, that going back to digital streaming means a complete redesign of my digital set up.

Software:
As I liked, what I have seen at my friends homes, it was clear, what I want:

Roon !

Musicserver:
My requirements are like this:
- Roon Core
- Roon Endpoint
- UPNP (DLNA)
- > 4TB SSD
- USB out
- LAN out
- Solid CD Ripping
- "Plug'n Play" (not Plug'n pray...)
As Computer Technology is developing fast, I gave myself a max budget of 5000,- eur , so no SGM, W20, Statement :-(
But the Innuos Zenith MKIII 4TB ssd has all the features I am looking for, and still is within the given budget.
http://www.innuos.com/en/catalog/go/zenith-mk3-1tb-ssd-black
DAC:
My requirements are like this:
- Roon Endpoint
inputs:
- LAN
- USB
- AES/EBU
- RCA SPDIF
outputs:
- RCA
- XLR
DAC chip
- separate for DSD and PCM
Using now Lampizator DAC's for some years, I am a kind of biased regarding possible performance and tonal balance.
But my current preamplifier (Grandinote Genesi) has a relatively low input impedance and I have the feeling, that some of my gear did a better job on my former Koda Preamp. But some sources do like the Genesi Preamp a lot, specially the sources with a low output impedance. My Golden Gate is in the range of 1500ohm, which is very high. The output impedance changes by all the different sets of available tubes. So driving the Genesi Preamp, the differences of the tubes become very clear.
Many of the available DACs with low output impedance can be found in the professional Studio market, but all of them, where I had the chance to listen to, were not according to my taste.
Lampizator has defined a standard (in combination with a matching set up), which ist difficult to match.
During the last Munich High End fair I had the chance to listen to the Brinkmann Nyquist II ( 15000,- eur) , which was a very good demo! To my surprise, Mastermind Brinkmann managed to develop a tube output stage DAC (NOS Telefunken tubes) with only 10ohm output impedance. Just by chance I had the opportunity to try out the Nyquist at home, and I found, what I was looking for!
A DAC, meeting all of my requirements .
https://www.brinkmann-audio.de/main.php?prod=nyquist&cat=default&lang=en
Since a couple of days the Zenith server and the Nyquist DAC do play music at my home and I have a day by day increasing learning curve.
I will share my findings in this thread in the next days.

Hello Jurgen,
The Innuos Zenith mk3 is a very good choice in its price range.
Stable, reliable and all-in-one.
The ripping/file management system may be the best and most convenient in the market.
Sonically, it definitely worths the price.

 

[CKKeung]

The Nyquist II is future-proof too.
Its digital sections are housed in an replaceable module.
Smart design!

 

[shakti]

A month is gone, a month with a lot of more digital play

At first I tried LAN and USB connection between Innuos and the Nyquist.

With all the cables accessible, the USB is more natural, has a better flow, the LAN connection has a little higher resolution, but on the price of sharp sibilants and thin upper bass.

Currently I do have close to 15 different USB cables to try. Next Saturday I will facilitate the next "workshop" at my home to get the impressions and judgements of audiophile guests. Currently I do have a problem to identify my favorite, it is too much depending on the individual album I am listening. On the better productions , I choose the USB cable with the best resolution. But with the most of my music, this cable will not work and I prefer a more rounding cable (like CAD).

As I have a bigger library, the 4TB of the Innuos were not enough to store all. So I bought a standard Western Digital NAS. Unfortunately the result was not as good, as I hoped. I tried a Melco N1/NH40 and the result was much better, so 2 of the 4TB versions are on the way to be used as incremental NAS storage.

In the meantime my Router (fritz box 7490) got a new (ifi) power supply, which was a small but noticeable upgrade.

Next step was to buy 2x Silent Angel Bonn N8 switches.

I am using one between my Router and the wall distribution box of my house installation. The other one is feeding my Innuous and the 2 Melco NAS.

The N8 switch helped a lot to eliminate remaining digital harshness. Their might be better switches out there, but the N8 was "fair" priced, so I tried first.

As I tried several LAN cables between Innuos and my DAC, I used the remaining LAN cables also between Router and switch. But no big difference. Than I tried the better LAN cables between N8 and Music Server. This cable upgrade was easy to identify, so a better cable will stay on this connection. No final decision about the cable brand so far.

For all the listeners looking for the final bit..., in this position it was audible, in which direction the LAN cable was connected. I tried both and it was obvious, which one was better (matching my personal taste).

Interestingly all my NAS do react on footers. Now I understand, why Melco has decided to have wooden feets as standard. Currently I like my old spring based Micro Seiki turntable footers. But I will look for alternatives as well.

The Innuos is placed on a HRS Rack and a HRS M3x base, which seem to be fine.

looking forward to play around with my digital gear another month

 

[Ron Resnick]

A month is gone, a month with a lot of more digital play

At first I tried LAN and USB connection between Innuos and the Nyquist.

With all the cables accessible, the USB is more natural, has a better flow, the LAN connection has a little higher resolution, but on the price of sharp sibilants and thin upper bass.

Currently I do have close to 15 different USB cables to try. Next Saturday I will facilitate the next "workshop" at my home to get the impressions and judgements of audiophile guests. Currently I do have a problem to identify my favorite, it is too much depending on the individual album I am listening. On the better productions , I choose the USB cable with the best resolution. But with the most of my music, this cable will not work and I prefer a more rounding cable (like CAD).

As I have a bigger library, the 4TB of the Innuos were not enough to store all. So I bought a standard Western Digital NAS. Unfortunately the result was not as good, as I hoped. I tried a Melco N1/NH40 and the result was much better, so 2 of the 4TB versions are on the way to be used as incremental NAS storage.

In the meantime my Router (fritz box 7490) got a new (ifi) power supply, which was a small but noticeable upgrade.

Next step was to buy 2x Silent Angel Bonn N8 switches.

I am using one between my Router and the wall distribution box of my house installation. The other one is feeding my Innuous and the 2 Melco NAS.

The N8 switch helped a lot to eliminate remaining digital harshness. Their might be better switches out there, but the N8 was "fair" priced, so I tried first.

As I tried several LAN cables between Innuos and my DAC, I used the remaining LAN cables also between Router and switch. But no big difference. Than I tried the better LAN cables between N8 and Music Server. This cable upgrade was easy to identify, so a better cable will stay on this connection. No final decision about the cable brand so far.

For all the listeners looking for the final bit..., in this position it was audible, in which direction the LAN cable was connected. I tried both and it was obvious, which one was better (matching my personal taste).

Interestingly all my NAS do react on footers. Now I understand, why Melco has decided to have wooden feets as standard. Currently I like my old spring based Micro Seiki turntable footers. But I will look for alternatives as well.

The Innuos is placed on a HRS Rack and a HRS M3x base, which seem to be fine.

looking forward to play around with my digital gear another month

Thank you for embarking upon and conducting this digital streaming journey. I would much rather simply copy what you figure out, then figure it out for myself.

 

[nicoludio]

A month is gone, a month with a lot of more digital play

At first I tried LAN and USB connection between Innuos and the Nyquist.

With all the cables accessible, the USB is more natural, has a better flow, the LAN connection has a little higher resolution, but on the price of sharp sibilants and thin upper bass.

Currently I do have close to 15 different USB cables to try. Next Saturday I will facilitate the next "workshop" at my home to get the impressions and judgements of audiophile guests. Currently I do have a problem to identify my favorite, it is too much depending on the individual album I am listening. On the better productions , I choose the USB cable with the best resolution. But with the most of my music, this cable will not work and I prefer a more rounding cable (like CAD).

As I have a bigger library, the 4TB of the Innuos were not enough to store all. So I bought a standard Western Digital NAS. Unfortunately the result was not as good, as I hoped. I tried a Melco N1/NH40 and the result was much better, so 2 of the 4TB versions are on the way to be used as incremental NAS storage.

In the meantime my Router (fritz box 7490) got a new (ifi) power supply, which was a small but noticeable upgrade.

Next step was to buy 2x Silent Angel Bonn N8 switches.

I am using one between my Router and the wall distribution box of my house installation. The other one is feeding my Innuous and the 2 Melco NAS.

The N8 switch helped a lot to eliminate remaining digital harshness. Their might be better switches out there, but the N8 was "fair" priced, so I tried first.

As I tried several LAN cables between Innuos and my DAC, I used the remaining LAN cables also between Router and switch. But no big difference. Than I tried the better LAN cables between N8 and Music Server. This cable upgrade was easy to identify, so a better cable will stay on this connection. No final decision about the cable brand so far.

For all the listeners looking for the final bit..., in this position it was audible, in which direction the LAN cable was connected. I tried both and it was obvious, which one was better (matching my personal taste).

Interestingly all my NAS do react on footers. Now I understand, why Melco has decided to have wooden feets as standard. Currently I like my old spring based Micro Seiki turntable footers. But I will look for alternatives as well.

The Innuos is placed on a HRS Rack and a HRS M3x base, which seem to be fine.

looking forward to play around with my digital gear another month

Shakti, very interesting journey you are having there.

If you have the opportunity to try the Telegartner MFP8 IE Gold LAN cable, please do so. I recently did, with quite astonishing results.

This was used between my Weiss DAC502 and Melco N1ZH/60 (which incidentally betters the Melco N1A that I used to have).

 

[shakti]

Shakti, very interesting journey you are having there.

If you have the opportunity to try the Telegartner MFP8 IE Gold LAN cable, please do so. I recently did, with quite astonishing results.

This was used between my Weiss DAC502 and Melco N1ZH/60 (which incidentally betters the Melco N1A that I used to have).

Unfortunately I cannot find a German vendor offering the Telegartner MFP8 IE Gold LAN cable, even on the Telegärtner side I can only find the LAN connector, not the cable. Might it be possible, that the cable as such is built from a local Telegartner distributor?

Regarding the Melco N1ZH/60. I have this unit on my longtime radar. But as I do not use the Melco to feed my DAC (this is done from the Innuos Zenith) , I am not sure, if the difference will be big (only used as data storage). But I need to give it a try.

 

[nicoludio]

The cable is made by Telegartner Japan - https://telegaertner.co.jp/product/audio_products/mfp8_ie_gold.html.

On the Melco, I would not be able to say if the N1ZH/60 would better than the N1A if used just as a NAS since I use the Melco as a server. Plus, the solid aluminium casing on the N1ZH is more appealing

Have you tried using the Melco as a network bridge? This can be done by connecting the Melco player output to the LAN and the Melco network output to the switch / Innous.

 

[shakti]

Have you tried using the Melco as a network bridge? This can be done by connecting the Melco player output to the LAN and the Melco network output to the switch / Innous.

Yes, I did, it is different, and I preferred it in the beginning. Sine I use the Silent Angel Bonn N8 network Switch, I prefer to connect the LAN cables of all NAS (incl Innuos) to the N8 switch. Currently only the Nyquist DAC is connected to the Innuos and not to the N8 switch. I have to compare this connection again, but I am lacking the number of identical LAN cables to make a fair judge.

 

[shakti]

To better understand the effect of a "high end" Music Server, I invited a Innous Statement to visit me.
A friendly dealer was interested too, so we are comparing all the different Innous Server now.

I will report !

 

[caesar]

Hi Shakti,
Interesting thread! Looking forward to your comments on the Innous Statement. When I heard it compared to their server just below the Statement at Axpona, it was no contest... everything was just BIGGER, CLEARER, and MUCH BETTER.

Also, maybe I missed it, but can you please compare and contrast the Brinkmann to the Lampizator?
Thanks

 

[CKKeung]

The Telegartner MFP8 IE Gold LAN cable is made by the Telegartner Japan branch.
The gold-plated cat8.1 ethernet connector is also an limited edition item, not available elsewhere.

In Hong Kong there is a dealer who signed agreement with Telegartner Japan to sell this special lan cable.
Anyone who have interest please pm me.

 

[HughP3]

To better understand the effect of a "high end" Music Server, I invited a Innous Statement to visit me.
A friendly dealer was interested too, so we are comparing all the different Innous Server now.

I will report

Shakti I am very interested in your Impressions. I will be demoing the Statment when my room build out is ready.

 

[howiebrou]

To better understand the effect of a "high end" Music Server, I invited a Innous Statement to visit me.
A friendly dealer was interested too, so we are comparing all the different Innous Server now.

I will report !

View attachment 58947

Likewise Would love to hear your thoughts on this. A pity that it's limited to 4TB internally...

 

[shakti]

As my brother is looking for a new Music Server, we tried last weekend all of the Innuos Server
(latest level), here are my impressions:

Innuos Zen mini:

Clear, a little thin in the bass, vibrant dynamics, harsh


Innuos Zen:

similar to Zen, but better bass, little less harshness


Innuos Zenith:

much better than Zen mini and Zen, fast, dynamic, good resolution from Bass to Treble, good punch, dynamic


Innuos Statement:

different from all former models, more soft, more round, more air, more space, highest resolution, very natural on wooden instruments and voices.


We used direct USB and/or LAN connection to my Brinkmann Nyquist. Comparison was done with MControl software. Later between Zenith and Statement also using them as Roon Core.

Listening to Statement, I am missing punch and dynamic scale of the Zenith. Listening to Zenith, I am missing the natural resolution.

Knowing, that distortions can create this kind of sonic effects, I would assume, that the level of distortion is becoming smaller with Statement.

End of the month the Innuos external USB clock will become available, which is the exact copy of the Statement USB output. This will be (hopefully soon) my next comparison.

Zenith plus USB clock will be an interesting price point and an upgrade for all Zen mini, Zen and Zenith user.


Regarding the limited 4TB space, I tried at first a standard external NAS (from Western Digital). The result was less satisfying compared with the internal 4TB.

Than I tried a Melco N1/40 4TB, only used as external NAS to increase the available HD space.

The result was much better. Connecting the Melco with the Zenith with direct LAN connection was fine, but as I am using now 2x Melco N1 (in total external 8TB) , so I bought the

Silent Angel Bonn N8 switch

to connect the Zenith and the 2 Melco N1/40 NAS.

I tried also to connect the Nyquist, but still the Zenith LAN output is the better solution.

As the N8 switch increased the performance in total (small, but noticeable effect) I bought another one , which is now used between my router and the inwall distributor input.


The N8 does show me, that a switch to improve the Ethernet Signal is needed, so I will try other offers, if they become available (and affordable) to me.

 

[shakti]

Hi Shakti,
Interesting thread! Looking forward to your comments on the Innous Statement. When I heard it compared to their server just below the Statement at Axpona, it was no contest... everything was just BIGGER, CLEARER, and MUCH BETTER.

Also, maybe I missed it, but can you please compare and contrast the Brinkmann to the Lampizator?
Thanks

Unfortunately I have no symmetrical GG available at the moment, so cannot compare the 2 units.