Should I stay, or should I go?

[dctom]

Oh, I do doubt it very much. Mike doesn't know anything about amp design I think...if I am wrong I apologize in advance but I am pretty sure he didn't do anything regarding the design. I also don't think he has a super special custom version with dramatically lower noise floor.

Ked has visited Mike's home so maybe he has some personal insight we are unaware of?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Brad, surely Grand Prix is the exception to that list?
They pride themselves on micro instant to micro instant speed analysis, and continual correction
The Monaco 1.0 checked 18000 times a revolution and their new flagship 2.0 10x that accuracy, w higher torque to boot
Mike Lavigne's Wave Kinetics NVS claims speed accuracy is good to 1ppm
I'm sure I've read reports re the Kodo Beat DD and Saskia 2 Ref claiming similar levels of speed accuracy

Re my tt "issues", as I've said I don't believe analog is per se suddenly worse, I believe my radical environmental change has highlighted some bottlenecks in it's performance, digital has been generally enhanced, and I "feel" I'm "hearing" the mechanical processes more
My tt still remains a compelling performer, just not as even across the board as my Eera, and certainly not the SGM
My dalliance w rim drive means I am more open to DD than others only familiar and happy w belt, and I remain open minded in investigating the Cinderella options you've listed
Any reason why you haven't put the most typical example on yr list ie the Technics SP10? Isn't this the Big Daddy of DDs esp re high torque speed stability, low noise?

 

[microstrip]

Marc, if you want the lowest noise TT then it is really clear:

Kenwood L07-D: S/N -94db (DIN-B)
Yamaha GT-2000: S/N -85db (DIN-B)
Pioneer Exclusive P3: S/N -78db (DIN-B)

For comparison:

Brinkmann Balance 2: S/N -66db (DIN-B)

Interestingly, most of the new, super high end TTs do not even publish a noise spec. I looked at Kronos, Continuum, Kuzma, Grand Prix Audio and Wave Kinetics and none of them publish speed or noise figures. Brinkmann does and they are no better than a mid level TT from 40 years ago.

A few of the old TTs have noise levels comparable to cd and speed stability that is better as well.

Can I ask what are you calling turntable S/N and how it was measured?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

"The darTZeel amplifier was quiet, the unweighted, wideband signal/noise ratio (ref. 2.83V into 8 ohms) measuring 81.4dB with the RCA input jack shorted to ground. Switching an A-weighting filter into circuit increased the ratio to 92.4dB, as the noise predominantly comprised low levels of the 60Hz AC supply frequency (fig.3), perhaps partly due to magnetic interference from the massive toroidal transformer that is the amplifier's heart.
Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/content/dartzeel-nhb-458-monoblock-amplifier-measurements#ktVgcoQz4ZlmJ4z8.99"

So quiet but by not the best. A real test is to hook up a pair to a pair of Avantgardes or other 100+db speakers and see how much hiss and hum you can hear from it. I know KR Audio gets somewhere around -98db noise figures and are quiet when hooked up to such speakers. NAT might be another story though...haven't heard them hooked up to super sensitive speakers though (my NAT was not deathly quiet on my Odeons though and neither is my NAT Plasma).

for real world comments on this noise issue read the Fremer Boulder 2150 review.

But nothing made by mere mortals is perfect, and every audio product, despite its designers' best intentions, "sounds." I think that the 2150's sound does have an overall character, and that that character is somewhat dry, and lacking the ultimate in musical flow. It reproduced precise attacks and ear-popping decays, but the sustains of notes between those attacks and decays were less than fully expressed.

By comparison, my reference monoblocks, darTZeel's NHB-458s, don't grip quite as tightly as the Boulders, nor do they achieve the 2150s' levels of transparency and solidity. What they deliver so well, especially for solid-state amps, is music's liquidity and natural flow—due to their more generous sustain. You can't have everything.

low noise is certainly important. but system noise is what matters in the end, and what are the consequences of an amplifier strangling the musical flow in the name of test bench low noise. in my system I use the Evolution Acoustics 'zeel' BNC's which do lower the noise just that little bit more. plus; the new dart pre is a good deal quieter than the previous one and pre's and amps need to be viewed as one entity as far as noise. and it's the whole balance of the system including the synergy of an amplifier and speaker where the music either breathes and flows and has that realism or it is does not quite do it. in my system with such an easy load and powerful amplifier you get this magical first watt and ease and authority. the whole room, power grid, grounding products, NCF outlets and plugs, active isolation, and all the acoustical tweaking all add up to give it a super low noise floor, but the flow, nuance and completeness of the music comes through.

and in my system the deep bass is handled by the active bass towers, which has benefits for the ease of the dart 458's on the music.

it's a system.

 

[bonzo75]

And what I was trying emphasise in my two posts - it is an END TO END SYSTEM strategy

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...tay-or-should-I-go/page23&p=436410#post436410

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...tay-or-should-I-go/page24&p=436474#post436474

In the absence of inability to implement that strategy, do another one http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...or-should-I-go&p=436494&viewfull=1#post436494

 

[morricab]

Can I ask what are you calling turntable S/N and how it was measured?

Often special filters are used to weight the noise: DIN-A, DIN-B, DIN-C, DIN-D, CCIR-601; for video, special filters such as comb filters may be used.

I found the data for the same filter used. This is quoted of course from the MFGs so they may be erroneous.

 

[morricab]

for real world comments on this noise issue read the Fremer Boulder 2150 review.



low noise is certainly important. but system noise is what matters in the end, and what are the consequences of an amplifier strangling the musical flow in the name of test bench low noise. in my system I use the Evolution Acoustics 'zeel' BNC's which do lower the noise just that little bit more. plus; the new dart pre is a good deal quieter than the previous one and pre's and amps need to be viewed as one entity as far as noise. and it's the whole balance of the system including the synergy of an amplifier and speaker where the music either breathes and flows and has that realism or it is does not quite do it. in my system with such an easy load and powerful amplifier you get this magical first watt and ease and authority. the whole room, power grid, grounding products, NCF outlets and plugs, active isolation, and all the acoustical tweaking all add up to give it a super low noise floor, but the flow, nuance and completeness of the music comes through.

and in my system the deep bass is handled by the active bass towers, which has benefits for the ease of the dart 458's on the music.

it's a system.

The "system" can only have an overall noise floor as good as its worst part...which is likely to be either the preamp(line or phono) or amp where there is significant gain that can also amplify noise. You might have a low audible noise for a number of reasons...truly low noise or a speaker system that is insensitive enough that noise is minimized...but so will the low level signal or what you may have done is minimized other potential interferences so that you are getting close to the amps intrinsic noise (assuming it is the worst noise piece in your system) and other people are simply not getting anywhere close to that. It seems you have also been able to minimize the in-room intrinsic noise floor. Do you know how many db your room measures with no music playing but the gear on? Do you have less than 40db? My old room was in the low 40s but my new room is not so low because of airplanes that periodically come by (we are not too far from the airport) and a church that rings large bells every 15 minutes (I know what a real bell sounds like all to well) it is not deathly quiet even with windows closed.


This is a problem not only in audio but in all kinds of analytical sciences where someone is trying to measure a very weak signal in the presence of significant noise. There are fundamental problems we struggle with in analytical science all the time because we are always pushing the limits.

 

[morricab]

Noise calculation:

http://www.imst.de/itg9_1/vortraege/oktober2001/koenigsmann_folien.pdf

 

[bonzo75]

The "system" can only have an overall noise floor as good as its worst part...which is likely to be either the preamp(line or phono) or amp where there is significant gain that can also amplify noise. You might have a low audible noise for a number of reasons...truly low noise or a speaker system that is insensitive enough that noise is minimized...but so will the low level signal or what you may have done is minimized other potential interferences so that you are getting close to the amps intrinsic noise (assuming it is the worst noise piece in your system) and other people are simply not getting anywhere close to that. It seems you have also been able to minimize the in-room intrinsic noise floor. Do you know how many db your room measures with no music playing but the gear on? Do you have less than 40db? My old room was in the low 40s but my new room is not so low because of airplanes that periodically come by (we are not too far from the airport) and a church that rings large bells every 15 minutes (I know what a real bell sounds like all to well) it is not deathly quiet even with windows closed.


This is a problem not only in audio but in all kinds of analytical sciences where someone is trying to measure a very weak signal in the presence of significant noise. There are fundamental problems we struggle with in analytical science all the time because we are always pushing the limits.

The first line is what I was trying to highlight to spirit, with in-room noise. Audiophile Bill was in his 30s, but his reflective noise was high when music was playing, like most of us, except those who have stellar rooms

 

[RogerD]

but system noise is what matters in the end,

it's a system.

Amen,Amen!

 

[RogerD]

The "system" can only have an overall noise floor as good as its worst part...which is likely to be either the preamp(line or phono) or amp where there is significant gain that can also amplify noise. You might have a low audible noise for a number of reasons...truly low noise or a speaker system that is insensitive enough that noise is minimized...but so will the low level signal or what you may have done is minimized other potential interferences so that you are getting close to the amps intrinsic noise (assuming it is the worst noise piece in your system) and other people are simply not getting anywhere close to that. It seems you have also been able to minimize the in-room intrinsic noise floor. Do you know how many db your room measures with no music playing but the gear on? Do you have less than 40db? My old room was in the low 40s but my new room is not so low because of airplanes that periodically come by (we are not too far from the airport) and a church that rings large bells every 15 minutes (I know what a real bell sounds like all to well) it is not deathly quiet even with windows closed.


This is a problem not only in audio but in all kinds of analytical sciences where someone is trying to measure a very weak signal in the presence of significant noise. There are fundamental problems we struggle with in analytical science all the time because we are always pushing the limits.

There is a solution to system noise....single point grounding of equipment. Too bad manufactures did not include to large grounding tabs for amplifiers and preamps. The Tripoint attempts to enable a single point (star ground)scheme. But it is impossible to know how much noise is generated from each piece of equipment....so how big a pathway is needed? You can start with 10awg,but that is doubtful ,but will make a improvement. Right now I have 2 pairs of 2 gauge battery isolator cable that I picked up at Harbor Freight for 70 bucks attached between my preamp-amplifier and that increased the pathway enough that my sub amp and EC which surprisingly produced lot's of noise. The trick is to make all the common node noise go to a single point and then by design back to ground.
Even though originally I had at least 3 runs of heavy cable on the amplifier it wasn't enough so i added a pair of battery cables......and I still haven't hit bottom with my sub amp and EC. You can't know until you experiment. Also I have yet to strap anything and not hear an improvement.

Not for everybody,but I not in a beauty contest.

And I'm not talking about room noise or TT noise,as most TT are grounded to the preamp anyway. I'm talking about current leakage,circuit noise,EMI,common node,and differential node,and SCIN, and whatever else is generated .

 

[marslo]

My noise floor mesured with Octave app and Ipad mic, the house is in the countryside, very quiet area:
1. Kitchen
2. Living room , speakers bass satelites on, amp and DAC off.
3. Living room, listening position , amp and DAC on , no signal.

 

[marslo]

And now quiet music , small ensemble, listening position , speakers Avantgarde Acoustic Duo Mezzo XD with 10 band DSP for bass satelites ( crossover at 220 Hz):

 

[andromedaaudio]

According to John storyk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmEzMYYmnyw the I phone app is about 90 % correct regarding noise level /reverberationtime as compared to the 20 K worth of equipment that he also has .
He uses it himself as well ,its coveniant off course .
But your measurment doesnt tell me much , - 77 db as refererred to what , cant you get a scale when it refers to the hearing limit of 0 db , so your room would then be about 40 db , a microfoon/speech recording studio is about 15 db ( ambient noise )


http://www.hear-it.org/Noise-noise-noise

 

[andromedaaudio]

Is there are a x over exchange just over 1 khz , i doubt you have 1 horn that plays all the way up from 220 hz .
You re looking at a +_ 5 db tolerance with quit a bit loss of energy from 800 - 1500 hz, an important area

 

[marslo]

According to John storyk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmEzMYYmnyw the I phone app is about 90 % correct regarding noise level /reverberationtime as compared to the 20 K worth of equipment that he also has .
He uses it himself as well ,its coveniant off course .
But your measurment doesnt tell me much , - 77 db as refererred to what , cant you get a scale when it refers to the hearing limit of 0 db , so your room would then be about 40 db , a microfoon/speech recording studio is about 15 db ( ambient noise )


http://www.hear-it.org/Noise-noise-noise

I understand that this overall -77 dB level is according to the calibration of the app ie Octave RTA.

 

[marslo]

Crossover between activ satelite section and the mid- range horn is setup with proprietary DSP SW by myself, than the big horn crossover by its shape and size is at 2000 Hz according to AG specification.
http://www.avantgarde-acoustic.de/duo-mezzo-specifications-en.html

 

[andromedaaudio]

Crossover between activ satelite section is setup with proprietary DSP SW by myself, than the big horn crossover by it' s shape and size is at 2000 Hz according to AG specification.
http://www.avantgarde-acoustic.de/duo-mezzo-specifications-en.html

Seems to me the mid horn starts to fall off at around 800 hz and the X over is more around 1,4 khz and not a perfect transition in this situation , but that could also be improved by speaker positioning , what if you measure half a meter closer or further away ??

 

[microstrip]

Often special filters are used to weight the noise: DIN-A, DIN-B, DIN-C, DIN-D, CCIR-601; for video, special filters such as comb filters may be used.

I found the data for the same filter used. This is quoted of course from the MFGs so they may be erroneous.

I did not ask about the filter, but how the measurement was carried. Is it just an weighted rumble measurement?

 

[marslo]

Seems to me the mid horn starts to fall off at around 800 hz and the X over is more around 1,4 khz and not a perfect transition in this situation , but that could also be improved by speaker positioning , what if you measure half a meter closer or further away ??

I think my last picture is a momentum of the played music, it only shows reproduced frequencies with a level of SPL.
It does not tell very much about the average accuracy ot the reproduction, but the app give you this possibility by observing the changes and graphs while playing music.
Video would be much better of course.
For example female voice a capella: