Should I stay, or should I go?

[spiritofmusic]

That sounds correct
All I can say is that Entreq made a bigger splash in London than here, it's effects more subtle
I'm more than happy a lot of noise issues have been dealt with by my power arrangements, Entreq is at the back of my priority list
Not convinced more beefed up Entreq would make any difference to the q posed in this thread

 

[RogerD]

That sounds correct
All I can say is that Entreq made a bigger splash in London than here, it's effects more subtle
I'm more than happy a lot of noise issues have been dealt with by my power arrangements, Entreq is at the back of my priority list
Not convinced more beefed up Entreq would make any difference to the q posed in this thread

Bottom line is digital inherently has a lower noise floor than vinyl or tape. The problem is very few systems can take advantage of it,and that's not the fault of the medium.

 

[bonzo75]

Bottom line is digital inherently has a lower noise floor than vinyl or tape. The problem is very few systems can take advantage of it,and that's not the fault of the medium.

I doubt people will find a lower noise floor then Mike's. But then he pursued a strategy end to end on the noise floor. He himself has said the Tripoint made a large difference, and the Entreq was subtle. But the whole noise floor is much more than that, He has a barn that's away from everything. The room noise floor itself is quiet - Spirt has an untreated room. Mike's power, Herzan, electronics (no valves, as opposed to NATs), cabling, Tripoint, Entreq, is all designed to further lower noise floors. His Analog too. I am sure he would have commented on how noise floor affects his tape and analog vs his digital had he not been traveling. Noisefloor, linearity headroom. I read all these things on the forums a lot but they came together only there.

What most other people do is they have a noise room or components and then try a couple of noise floor tweaks. I have seldom heard those benefits, and then just replacing one component by another quieter component does not add much unless the quieter component has some other strengths as well. You are right that few systems do take advantage of the noise floor

 

[andromedaaudio]

These are all measurable things so arguments can be stated by facts ,there are 2 kinds off noise :what is produced in the room and what comes in the room from out side :
Mike lives in a quit rural area. as far as I can see , separated audio room , he could take a SPL measurement in his room with all audio gear switched off airco off etc ..
Then he could do the same with everything switched on airco on /lights on / audio gear on but with no CD playing .
Repeat again with all the analogue gear on , I m sure the tapemachines will make a bit more noise if turned on then a DAC/ CD player .
The lower noise floor both from incoming noise as reduced component noise will raise dynamic contrast , so things will sound more dynamic in mikes room on the rural countryside then the same installation in a typical city apartment.

 

[RogerD]

I doubt people will find a lower noise floor then Mike's. But then he pursued a strategy end to end on the noise floor. He himself has said the Tripoint made a large difference, and the Entreq was subtle. But the whole noise floor is much more than that, He has a barn that's away from everything. The room noise floor itself is quiet - Spirt has an untreated room. Mike's power, Herzan, electronics (no valves, as opposed to NATs), cabling, Tripoint, Entreq, is all designed to further lower noise floors. His Analog too. I am sure he would have commented on how noise floor affects his tape and analog vs his digital had he not been traveling. Noisefloor, linearity headroom. I read all these things on the forums a lot but they came together only there.

What most other people do is they have a noise room or components and then try a couple of noise floor tweaks. I have seldom heard those benefits, and then just replacing one component by another quieter component does not add much unless the quieter component has some other strengths as well. You are right that few systems do take advantage of the noise floor

Trouble is there are degrees of noise-less audio and one doesn't know how low it can be. But this I can tell you there are definite thresholds and when you break it you know it. The first is when the width of the soundstage removes the room from the presentation. The 2nd is when the clarity takes a quantum leap and tonality mimics live music. The third is when even in recordings that are engineered to feature distinct L and right channel information that information joins the main image.
The bulk of noise is after the duplex,in the system itself,because it is system generated. The noise from your power company tends to be fine. A single point ground scheme can remove the bulk of the noise no matter where it is generated.

The Tripoint should be better because it's circuit does go back to the PC (transformer). Noise travels on the skin of the conductor whether stranded or mesh braided and the larger the size,the larger the pathway.

 

[bonzo75]

Sure Ron
Half my acquisitions have been new w factory direct savings ie Zus, Symposium, my current tt
Half have been astute second hand purchases ie my Eera cdp, NATs amps
I've bought nothing ever at rrp, which means that after two decades' upgrading and 3-4 systems, I've kind of broken even on my spending
But, but...I am REALLY wary about buying any top tt/arm on the cheap
First of all, in the UK we have a dearth of really skilled guys to set up a tt/arm if you end up buying and the tt drops on yr doorstep in a box w no one on hand to help
I have a lot of contacts re other gear like my power and crt pj install, but none I can rely on to be confident at setting up a eg Balance
Secondly, there is so much scope for buying damaged goods, not as advertised etc
I'm not sure I can completely trust buying a tt on Audiogon or EBay
But maybe a tt from a main dealer who could then offer to install for a fee would be manageable

No one has more analog gear than Mik, he will also have trade ins, and some really great stuff. for example, who else can tell you that AF2 sounds better than Kodo Beat, but Kodo Beat with Airtangent can beat AF2 with SAT? Or something like that. SPJ Alba, Schopper, Thorens Ref, Vyger, name it - go there do a check.

 

[bonzo75]

This exceptional exceptional piano performance : Maurizio Pollini playing three movements of Stravinsky Petrouchka’s , among other nice pieces (DG447 431-2) was one the recordings that made me re-think digital when the quality of my equipment improved. Only recently I was able to source an LP of this work, but it could only confirm that in my system my old CD sounded much more real than the vinyl.

When I stay for some time far from concerts I start admiring the body and bloom of pianos in vinyl, the airiness of the touch, but as soon as I sit on a concert I cannot fail to notice how more real digital usually sounds in piano recordings.

BTW, I have the CD box of the complete DG recordings of Maria João Pires and have listened to her playing live. I still prefer the live version, I know if I had LPs I would prefer the recording ...

BTW2, I am just addressing piano recordings, not general recordings.

Well - I don't stay away from concerts. Recently I have seen Murray Perahia do Beethoven's 1 and 3, scheduled to watch 2 and 4, then 5. At Barbican. But recently at Sheldonian in Oxford, which became my favorite for small ensemble and soloists, saw Saint Saens Piano Concerto - very unique venue and sitting arrangement, best bloom I had. Irrespective of venue, all my favorite pianos have been - American Sounds with Neumann DST at DDK's, Yamamura with Monaco, Graham, Zyx DIamond, and another VoTT horn with Caeles TT and Ortofon SPU a85/Schick. Mike's system. Also, the nuances of the piano notes change so much with the cartridge. You can confirm with DDK, but the difference from Koetsu RSP to Neumann is just so high. And speakers aside, I find this in many TTs, though speakers cannot easily reproduce it. And recently I heard the same jump in piano nuance moving from Koetsu Onyx to Zyx Uni 1. The only time I have heard digital do those nuances is with 242 into Lampi. Not that level.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I think tape can reproduce the best piano period , definitively an instrument where it obviously shines .
When I had Michel over ( flyer )and we listened to piano on the studer , he commented it sounded almost like a horn , maybe he will write about it
Those startling dynamic contrasts I have never heard with digital or Records

 

[bonzo75]

I think tape can reproduce the best piano period , definitively an instrument where it obviously shines .
When I had Michel over ( flyer )and we listened to piano on the studer , he commented it sounded almost like a horn , maybe he will write about it
Those startling dynamic contrasts I have never heard with digital or Records

Don't give people ideas, or they will start a thread on is digital better than tape

 

[andromedaaudio]

Lol yes , no problem let them proof it
He did like my speakers , I think he preferred them over the rockport aviors .
Only my room with a much higher reverb then he was used to took some adjusting

Don't give people ideas, or they will start a thread on is digital better than tape

 

[spiritofmusic]

I'm sure Mike's room is deathly quiet
My space at the v top of my property is about as quiet as I can get save for a dedicated outbldg which was never on the cards
It's s good as I can get, certainly a major advance over my London apartment block
Acoustic insulation of eaves and flr stops a lot of sound entering from outside and from within the house, neighbours few and far between
My power is as good as I'm going to get it, Tripoint is just not a road I'm going down, from an expense PoV as anything
Now, I really am aware of subtle changes in my rig, between recordings, and media
Just trying to read the convergence btwn top digital and analog for any possible final source changes in my system
So, from a noise POV I'm really content I've worked the problem, my analysis is elsewhere now

 

[microstrip]

I think tape can reproduce the best piano period , definitively an instrument where it obviously shines .
When I had Michel over ( flyer )and we listened to piano on the studer , he commented it sounded almost like a horn , maybe he will write about it
Those startling dynamic contrasts I have never heard with digital or Records

Well, really my Vivaldi does not make a piano sound like an horn ... But neither my A80 does ...

 

[microstrip]

I'm sure Mike's room is deathly quiet
My space at the v top of my property is about as quiet as I can get save for a dedicated outbldg which was never on the cards
It's s good as I can get, certainly a major advance over my London apartment block
Acoustic insulation of eaves and flr stops a lot of sound entering from outside and from within the house, neighbours few and far between
My power is as good as I'm going to get it, Tripoint is just not a road I'm going down, from an expense PoV as anything
Now, I really am aware of subtle changes in my rig, between recordings, and media
Just trying to read the convergence btwn top digital and analog for any possible final source changes in my system
So, from a noise POV I'm really content I've worked the problem, my analysis is elsewhere now

The first digital component that I owned that was really "quite" was the Forsell combo - air bearing CD transport and DAC. It was the equipment that conciliated me with digital. I sold it to get a more detailed system, with more bass and slam, but very soon I came back to another Forsell combo - this time the mk3.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Well , id like to think it must be the speakers then :b

Well, really my Vivaldi does not make a piano sound like an horn ... But neither my A80 does ...

 

[bonzo75]

I'm sure Mike's room is deathly quiet
My space at the v top of my property is about as quiet as I can get save for a dedicated outbldg which was never on the cards
It's s good as I can get, certainly a major advance over my London apartment block
Acoustic insulation of eaves and flr stops a lot of sound entering from outside and from within the house, neighbours few and far between
My power is as good as I'm going to get it, Tripoint is just not a road I'm going down, from an expense PoV as anything
Now, I really am aware of subtle changes in my rig, between recordings, and media
Just trying to read the convergence btwn top digital and analog for any possible final source changes in my system
So, from a noise POV I'm really content I've worked the problem, my analysis is elsewhere now

I think you are missing the point. Mike's end to end detail means he won't have NAT or equivalent in his chain. Of course, you won't have Dartzeel or something, but then that is a noise floor sacrifice.
You missed the room treatment point . From what I understand you haven't furnished (stuff on the wall etc) in your current room, you don't have acoustic treatment, and probably no carpet either. Again to do an all out assault on noise, one needs to get professional help and tweak the room for years. And for that thing to come together and click, it does require all all out assault - both from expense and detail point of view. I am just addressing the noise floor point of view. Not digital/analog.

 

[morricab]

I was listening to a Mercury Living Presence recording last night and I could hear the tuba player take in a breath several times like he was in the room. You have clarity like that,it's hard to knock digital. As far as natural bloom,even in a recording studio it is highly enjoyable...example Brazil 66

View attachment 31087

Interesting...however, that is not what I meant by "breathing".

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ked, not many people if any in the UK will have gone down Mike's level of detail
W'out getting acousticians involved and comprehensive measuring, I've done the next best thing, which is a good deal of expense spent on Kingspan and Rockwool built into the eaves and floor for the whole room
I've then added a suite of GIKs to cover bass traps in corners, and 242s to all reflection points and at wall behind speakers
And then a carpet to 3/4 of the room
Slap echo is controlled nicely, and w isolation from the house, and from outside, which is already not noisy because of being in the middle of nowhere, the acoustic just has a peaceful quiet
Add my OTT approach to power, and I feel I've gone as far as I can w'out going to the next step, that could put another £20k on the bill I simply do not have
On the downside, my tube gear by definition is never going to be quiet
But I really feel that the room construction and power has taken me a lot further down the low noise floor path than I ever envisaged

 

[bonzo75]

Ked, not many people if any in the UK will have gone down Mike's level of detail
W'out getting acousticians involved and comprehensive measuring, I've done the next best thing, which is a good deal of expense spent on Kingspan and Rockwool built into the eaves and floor for the whole room
I've then added a suite of GIKs to cover bass traps in corners, and 242s to all reflection points and at wall behind speakers
And then a carpet to 3/4 of the room
Slap echo is controlled nicely, and w isolation from the house, and from outside, which is already not noisy because of being in the middle of nowhere, the acoustic just has a peaceful quiet
Add my OTT approach to power, and I feel I've gone as far as I can w'out going to the next step, that could put another £20k on the bill I simply do not have
On the downside, my tube gear by definition is never going to be quiet
But I really feel that the room construction and power has taken me a lot further down the low noise floor path than I ever envisaged

I am not disputing any of that - and I would do exactly the same thing - all I am saying is, we have to be aware of what an actual noise reduction strategy is, and what our abilities are, and then think of how much can we invest there if we cannot see it through. Kind of like do I want to get a 20k TT if I don't want to spend time dialing it in? Personally I think a valve strategy is a different one - you are for a pure signal strategy - valves, all single ended, no balanced for noise reduction benefits, etc etc - and this is a successful strategy too. If I pursue a SET+horn+idler/SPU strategy, while I will get my SET amps and pre and phono valve, and as low noise as it can be, I won't add in a Boulder for a lower noise. It is just a different strategy. Both work.

 

[spiritofmusic]

This discussion on reducing noise is interesting and deserving of its own thread, but not totally relevant for the subject of this thread
The aspect of noise that is may well be the noise inherent to analog replay ie vinyl whoosh, stylus friction, roar, rumble, surface noise, platter noise
Ie vinyl playing artifacts
After a good year away from my normal diet of two to three dozen lps a week, and regular extended exposure to the nr zero noise flr SGM, I'm REALLY "aware" of the noise flr of vinyl wrt digital
But also after several days of overdosing on vinyl, I'm aware of the seeming lack of headroom on info in those grooves
I'm minded, if I am going to investigate further, to check out analog that presents this info while maxxing out on reducing those mechanical noise artifacts
And that means tts that really have excellent tolerances and are as neutral as possible
Within real world pricing, GP Monaco 1.5, AMG Viella V12, SME 30/2 or 20/3, Brinkmann Balance 2, and possibly as an outside contender, the J Sikora Reference

 

[bonzo75]

This discussion on reducing noise is interesting and deserving of its own thread, but not totally relevant for the subject of this thread
The aspect of noise that is may well be the noise inherent to analog replay ie vinyl whoosh, stylus friction, roar, rumble, surface noise, platter noise
Ie vinyl playing artifacts
After a good year away from my normal diet of two to three dozen lps a week, and regular extended exposure to the nr zero noise flr SGM, I'm REALLY "aware" of the noise flr of vinyl wrt digital
But also after several days of overdosing on vinyl, I'm aware of the seeming lack of headroom on info in those grooves
I'm minded, if I am going to investigate further, to check out analog that presents this info while maxxing out on reducing those mechanical noise artifacts
And that means tts that really have excellent tolerances and are as neutral as possible
Within real world pricing, GP Monaco 1.5, AMG Viella V12, SME 30/2 or 20/3, Brinkmann Balance 2, and possibly as an outside contender, the J Sikora Reference

After 24 pages on your contemplation we can digress a bit

The Sikora sounded great with the horns Universum at Windsor.