Should I stay, or should I go?

[spiritofmusic]

Don't start Dave
Just about to dip into Randall And Hopkirk (Deceased) and UFO on Blu Ray
You can NEVER get enough late 60s/early 70s for my liking
But, back to the thread at hand
From the multitude of really friendly and insightful posts, there is no real consensus to be had
A top top tt w bulletproof motor would most likely give my Lp listening a Vitamin D boost
But great digital is great music, as opposed to great digital even a decade ago being just "good"
And you'll never know for sure how great any tune might sound on any format
Hmm, does that help me w the q I've posed in this thread?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Marc, I would like to emphasize that, as others stated as well, don't let list pricing deter you from all but the most expensive turntable/tonearms.

LL21 does fabulously well buying used (although he has more patience than a zen master). Marty buys used. Kedar will buy used. I bought my first turntable used, my first MartinLogans used and my VTLs used.

I do not know the Brinkmann line well but I heard the big Brinkmann with a Triplanar at a friend's house and it was wonderful.

 

[PeterA]

Brad/Morricab has done me a service by highlighting the Balance
There's no doubt the motor may be a limiting factor in my current tt, and prob across many so-called top tts
That Brinkmann Sinus motor w it's overspecced 500g flywheel looks a marvel of power, torque and accuracy
Fully kitted out w a 12" arm and Ront tubed psu to the motor, it looks class leading in the semi affordable category that incls Kuzma XL, GP 1.5, SME 30, TW Black Knight, and half the price of the Kronos, Kodo, AF2, Wave Kinetics
I would love to know how the Balance and Kuzma XL motors compare

Marc, based on your previous experience with SME, I'm surprised that you included the Model 30 on that list. I thought one of the criticisms was the belt drive, but I see TW Akustics, Kronos, TechDAS all included, and they are all belt drive designs. What is your criteria for turntables that you would consider for this major upgrade to your analog front end and would you consider change the phono stage, arm and cartridge also?

This thread has taken some interesting turns, from suggestions that you simply want approval for a particular digital component to now reconsidering changes to your analog source. Interestingly, this process reminds me of what Ron recently did, namely, while embarking on a complete room/house renovation, spending a year or more researching gear for his next, audio system, in his case, speakers and analog source. I hope if you decide to further research analog options, that you share and document the process with the forum. It should be fun and very educational.

EDIT: Marc, if I lived near London, I would try to get a tour of the SME factory and then consider buying a table from one of the two or three big SME dealers in England. They might even have some pre-owned units and they could certainly set one up for you. I would think there are plenty of options.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Sure Ron
Half my acquisitions have been new w factory direct savings ie Zus, Symposium, my current tt
Half have been astute second hand purchases ie my Eera cdp, NATs amps
I've bought nothing ever at rrp, which means that after two decades' upgrading and 3-4 systems, I've kind of broken even on my spending
But, but...I am REALLY wary about buying any top tt/arm on the cheap
First of all, in the UK we have a dearth of really skilled guys to set up a tt/arm if you end up buying and the tt drops on yr doorstep in a box w no one on hand to help
I have a lot of contacts re other gear like my power and crt pj install, but none I can rely on to be confident at setting up a eg Balance
Secondly, there is so much scope for buying damaged goods, not as advertised etc
I'm not sure I can completely trust buying a tt on Audiogon or EBay
But maybe a tt from a main dealer who could then offer to install for a fee would be manageable

 

[microstrip]

I really like the GG it can sound fantastic with good recordings and of course play material not available on vinyl. eg I bought a 2nd hand CD recently - Le Voyage Magnifique - Schubert: Impromptus D 899 & D 935; Allegretto, D 915; Klavierstucke, D 946 by Maria João Pires

Ripped to the hard drive and it sounds wonderful, powerful, full bodied, rich piano.

But then I bought - Peter Donohoe / Stravinsky* / Prokofiev* / Rachmaninov* ?– Three Movements From 'Petrushka' / Sonata No.6 In A Op.82 / Étude Tableau In E Flat Minor Op.39 No.5 LP in a charity shop for £1. Ultra soniclly cleaned it sounds totally convincing. But hey this is a 1982 EMI DIGITAL LP !!

Which sounds better? difficult to say, the vinyl probably sounds a bit more realistic, the growl of the lowest notes a bit more visceral. Without having a grand piano in the room - a difficult call.

I have a vinyl box set of Rachmaninov - Vladimir Ashkenazy, The London Symphony Orchestra, André Previn ?– Piano Concerto No. 4; Rhapsody On A Theme Of Paganini 1972 - recently obtained a hi res recording of the same, the digital sound richer and fuller.

However if I put on Wayne Shorter, standard BN pressing and compare it to the Hi res version - no contest the vinyl is so much better.

This exceptional exceptional piano performance : Maurizio Pollini playing three movements of Stravinsky Petrouchka’s , among other nice pieces (DG447 431-2) was one the recordings that made me re-think digital when the quality of my equipment improved. Only recently I was able to source an LP of this work, but it could only confirm that in my system my old CD sounded much more real than the vinyl.

When I stay for some time far from concerts I start admiring the body and bloom of pianos in vinyl, the airiness of the touch, but as soon as I sit on a concert I cannot fail to notice how more real digital usually sounds in piano recordings.

BTW, I have the CD box of the complete DG recordings of Maria João Pires and have listened to her playing live. I still prefer the live version, I know if I had LPs I would prefer the recording ...

BTW2, I am just addressing piano recordings, not general recordings.

 

[dctom]

It is a great sensation finding a high quality recording, it is just a shame that there is such a variance in quality with both digital and vinyl sound.

 

[morricab]

This exceptional exceptional piano performance : Maurizio Pollini playing three movements of Stravinsky Petrouchka’s , among other nice pieces (DG447 431-2) was one the recordings that made me re-think digital when the quality of my equipment improved. Only recently I was able to source an LP of this work, but it could only confirm that in my system my old CD sounded much more real than the vinyl.

When I stay for some time far from concerts I start admiring the body and bloom of pianos in vinyl, the airiness of the touch, but as soon as I sit on a concert I cannot fail to notice how more real digital usually sounds in piano recordings.

BTW, I have the CD box of the complete DG recordings of Maria João Pires and have listened to her playing live. I still prefer the live version, I know if I had LPs I would prefer the recording ...

BTW2, I am just addressing piano recordings, not general recordings.

I do not get additional "bloom" or "body" with my vinyl playback compared to what I heard live recently (Evgenyi Kissin live at Tonhalle...2nd row) for my good Pollini recordings of Chopin or my Wilhelm Kempf recording of Beethoven Sonatas (both DG recordings). What was your TT/arm/cart/phono?

 

[morricab]

Sure Ron
Half my acquisitions have been new w factory direct savings ie Zus, Symposium, my current tt
Half have been astute second hand purchases ie my Eera cdp, NATs amps
I've bought nothing ever at rrp, which means that after two decades' upgrading and 3-4 systems, I've kind of broken even on my spending
But, but...I am REALLY wary about buying any top tt/arm on the cheap
First of all, in the UK we have a dearth of really skilled guys to set up a tt/arm if you end up buying and the tt drops on yr doorstep in a box w no one on hand to help
I have a lot of contacts re other gear like my power and crt pj install, but none I can rely on to be confident at setting up a eg Balance
Secondly, there is so much scope for buying damaged goods, not as advertised etc
I'm not sure I can completely trust buying a tt on Audiogon or EBay
But maybe a tt from a main dealer who could then offer to install for a fee would be manageable

Setup of the Balance is not hard. A good protractor (I use Clearaudio) or a Dr. Feickert setup system (I have an early Beta of this given to me by Chris Feickert when he came to my place) will do the job. My system was so well set up that the Dr. Feickert system could find nothing wrong with it! They were surprised to say the least! (the software developer was also there).

 

[microstrip]

I do not get additional "bloom" or "body" with my vinyl playback compared to what I heard live recently (Evgenyi Kissin live at Tonhalle...2nd row) for my good Pollini recordings of Chopin or my Wilhelm Kempf recording of Beethoven Sonatas (both DG recordings). What was your TT/arm/cart/phono?

If your system manages to reproduce the sound of Evgeny Kissin in row 2 I must congratulate you - I was hearing him sometime ago in row D or E and would prefer a row I ... His fortissimo outbursts were really powerful!

I can tune my vinyl system to suppress bloom and body - but then it sounds too dry in most recordings. Yes, I know it is why some people have several tonearms and cartridges, or even several turntables, and never manage to choose a single preferred.

 

[morricab]

If your system manages to reproduce the sound of Evgeny Kissin in row 2 I must congratulate you - I was hearing him sometime ago in row D or E and would prefer a row I ... His fortissimo outbursts were really powerful!

I can tune my vinyl system to suppress bloom and body - but then it sounds too dry in most recordings. Yes, I know it is why some people have several tonearms and cartridges, or even several turntables, and never manage to choose a single preferred.

I was slightly "off-axis", meaning I was not sitting right in front of him. I was about 4 meters from the piano. My ex-GF used to play house concerts in the home of a very rich Swiss person. She would play her violin with accompaniment from a pianist. The rich patron had a Bosendorfer concert grand, that was just gigantic (the room was not small either) and I would sit about 3-4 meters from them as they performed...exquisite. Of course I was sitting many many many hours about that distance from violin played at the highest level, day in and day out...quite an education.

 

[morricab]

If your system manages to reproduce the sound of Evgeny Kissin in row 2 I must congratulate you - I was hearing him sometime ago in row D or E and would prefer a row I ... His fortissimo outbursts were really powerful!

I can tune my vinyl system to suppress bloom and body - but then it sounds too dry in most recordings. Yes, I know it is why some people have several tonearms and cartridges, or even several turntables, and never manage to choose a single preferred.

I would not say exactly like I heard live but with a very similar tonal balance and similar "bloom" and especially the "breathing" of the live sound when you are close to it.

 

[RogerD]

I would not say exactly like I heard live but with a very similar tonal balance and similar "bloom" and especially the "breathing" of the live sound when you are close to it.

I was listening to a Mercury Living Presence recording last night and I could hear the tuba player take in a breath several times like he was in the room. You have clarity like that,it's hard to knock digital. As far as natural bloom,even in a recording studio it is highly enjoyable...example Brazil 66

 

[spiritofmusic]

Roger, detail retrieval is great, but that detail needs to be complemented w tone
IMHO the best digital seems to do the best detail, the best vinyl seems to do the best tone
IMHO, YMMV, recording/mastering dependent etc etc

 

[RogerD]

Roger, detail retrieval is great, but that detail needs to be complemented w tone
IMHO the best digital seems to do the best detail, the best vinyl seems to do the best tone
IMHO, YMMV, recording/mastering dependent etc etc

Not really,most people don't realize how much information is captured in a recording. The @ the microphone litterly can reveal a tonal realism that can be quite stunning. Digital is the perfect medium to achieve a absolute noise floor and that is the key. In that regard I think digital is the better medium,just because it requires much less effort.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Roger, I do v much get the low noise floor argument having heard the stellar SGM and it's vanishingly low levels of hash
It makes for the most transparent digital component and to this vinylphile at least, is a proper bridge to analog-like calm and flow
However, I still feel the best analog steals a march in even this unit w its ability to saturate tone and energise the air
Hence my little dilemma at the heart of this thread

 

[RogerD]

Roger, I do v much get the low noise floor argument having heard the stellar SGM and it's vanishingly low levels of hash
It makes for the most transparent digital component and to this vinylphile at least, is a proper bridge to analog-like calm and flow
However, I still feel the best analog steals a march in even this unit w its ability to saturate tone and energise the air
Hence my little dilemma at the heart of this thread

I guarantee you that the noise floor can be lower. Most systems do not have a large enough pathway to ground and that is the bottle neck. Even on the mastering side the pathway to ground is not equal to the record side. When it is equal then you realize how much information can he reproduced. Like I said it is stunning because engineered compression distorts the recording in so many ways.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Roger, short of batteries, I've worked really hard at reducing noise in my new audio room
Dedicated feed split before the domestic feed, 100A fuse, 18mm SWA copper cable direct to bespoke consumer unit, 16mm Oyaides to an 8kVA balanced power transformer, 16mm Oyaide back to CU, six Oyaides dedicated lines to six duplex Furutechs, Entreq Silver Tellus/Apollos signal grounding to all components, Entreq Silver Cleanus/Olympus Minimus high frequencies filter to the mains at Furutechs
Impedance at mains measured as under 10 Ohms
A reasonable attempt at reducing mains noise and opening up the headroom of my system

 

[RogerD]

Roger, short of batteries, I've worked really hard at reducing noise in my new audio room
Dedicated feed split before the domestic feed, 100A fuse, 18mm SWA copper cable direct to bespoke consumer unit, 16mm Oyaides to an 8kVA balanced power transformer, 16mm Oyaide back to CU, six Oyaides dedicated lines to six duplex Furutechs, Entreq Silver Tellus/Apollos signal grounding to all components, Entreq Silver Cleanus/Olympus Minimus high frequencies filter to the mains at Furutechs
Impedance at mains measured as under 10 Ohms
A reasonable attempt at reducing mains noise and opening up the headroom of my system

Your entreq cables what size are they between the device and preamp and also the device and amplifier? 14,12,10 awg? Too small...they need to be much larger. Stranded copper is fine,like lugged battery cable.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Roger, tbh Entreq is the lesser part of my setup, the lines and dedicated transformer doing 90% of the clean up
I've tried beefier Atlantis Earth cbls and they don't help in my set up

 

[RogerD]

Roger, tbh Entreq is the lesser part of my setup, the lines and dedicated transformer doing 90% of the clean up
I've tried beefier Atlantis Earth cbls and they don't help in my set up

The concept is very simple. In most home systems the signal cables make up the signal circuit which is grounded. Depending the design of the cable the grounding can remove more noise or less noise. The entreq is a attempt to add a single point ground scheme to the system thus creating a separate pathway to ground. The problem is that pathway tends not to be adequately large enough. The ultimate goal is to have the signal cables and the ground scheme to separate the audio signal from the common node noise.
Batteries do not address common node noise.