Should I stay, or should I go?

[morricab]

I think you are missing the point. Mike's end to end detail means he won't have NAT or equivalent in his chain. Of course, you won't have Dartzeel or something, but then that is a noise floor sacrifice.
You missed the room treatment point . From what I understand you haven't furnished (stuff on the wall etc) in your current room, you don't have acoustic treatment, and probably no carpet either. Again to do an all out assault on noise, one needs to get professional help and tweak the room for years. And for that thing to come together and click, it does require all all out assault - both from expense and detail point of view. I am just addressing the noise floor point of view. Not digital/analog.

"The darTZeel amplifier was quiet, the unweighted, wideband signal/noise ratio (ref. 2.83V into 8 ohms) measuring 81.4dB with the RCA input jack shorted to ground. Switching an A-weighting filter into circuit increased the ratio to 92.4dB, as the noise predominantly comprised low levels of the 60Hz AC supply frequency (fig.3), perhaps partly due to magnetic interference from the massive toroidal transformer that is the amplifier's heart.
Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/content/dartzeel-nhb-458-monoblock-amplifier-measurements#ktVgcoQz4ZlmJ4z8.99"

So quiet but by not the best. A real test is to hook up a pair to a pair of Avantgardes or other 100+db speakers and see how much hiss and hum you can hear from it. I know KR Audio gets somewhere around -98db noise figures and are quiet when hooked up to such speakers. NAT might be another story though...haven't heard them hooked up to super sensitive speakers though (my NAT was not deathly quiet on my Odeons though and neither is my NAT Plasma).

 

[dctom]

I am not disputing any of that - and I would do exactly the same thing - all I am saying is, we have to be aware of what an actual noise reduction strategy is, and what our abilities are, and then think of how much can we invest there if we cannot see it through. Kind of like do I want to get a 20k TT if I don't want to spend time dialing it in? Personally I think a valve strategy is a different one - you are for a pure signal strategy - valves, all single ended, no balanced for noise reduction benefits, etc etc - and this is a successful strategy too. If I pursue a SET+horn+idler/SPU strategy, while I will get my SET amps and pre and phono valve, and as low noise as it can be, I won't add in a Boulder for a lower noise. It is just a different strategy. Both work.

A while ago I remember reading about Mike's room on audiogon (I think?) and how he initially got in a pro acoustician but later did a lot of diy additions and adjustments to the room treatment, I seem to remember him commenting on how his diy latter work made a big difference.

I treated my room after quite a bit of research, one of the sites that I found helpful was .... http://realtraps.com/howto.htm

As to ss v valve for noise - ss is not necessarily quieter. I did compare various ss phonos with my ARC ref2 stage some were as quiet others not. My Dartzeel pre with phono was not nearly as quiet as my current Ypsilon phono (4valves)

 

[microstrip]

(...) As to ss v valve for noise - ss is not necessarily quieter. I did compare various ss phonos with my ARC ref2 stage some were as quiet others not. My Dartzeel pre with phono was not nearly as quiet as my current Ypsilon phono (4valves)

Just to remember that the ARC REF2 phono stage has FET inputs - it combines the best of tubes with SS!

 

[microstrip]

"The darTZeel amplifier was quiet, the unweighted, wideband signal/noise ratio (ref. 2.83V into 8 ohms) measuring 81.4dB with the RCA input jack shorted to ground. Switching an A-weighting filter into circuit increased the ratio to 92.4dB, as the noise predominantly comprised low levels of the 60Hz AC supply frequency (fig.3), perhaps partly due to magnetic interference from the massive toroidal transformer that is the amplifier's heart.
Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/content/dartzeel-nhb-458-monoblock-amplifier-measurements#ktVgcoQz4ZlmJ4z8.99"

So quiet but by not the best. A real test is to hook up a pair to a pair of Avantgardes or other 100+db speakers and see how much hiss and hum you can hear from it. I know KR Audio gets somewhere around -98db noise figures and are quiet when hooked up to such speakers. NAT might be another story though...haven't heard them hooked up to super sensitive speakers though (my NAT was not deathly quiet on my Odeons though and neither is my NAT Plasma).

Being subjectively "quiet" is not exactly the same thing as a signal to noise ratio measurement. As referred bizarre power devices and cables have a strong influence in quietness, but do not affect the measurements. The measurement is however useful to avoid combinations that can produce hiss and hum.

Witch particular KR model are you addressing? The KR measurements of SNR of VT8000 published by Stereophile were very poor.

 

[bonzo75]

"The darTZeel amplifier was quiet, the unweighted, wideband signal/noise ratio (ref. 2.83V into 8 ohms) measuring 81.4dB with the RCA input jack shorted to ground. Switching an A-weighting filter into circuit increased the ratio to 92.4dB, as the noise predominantly comprised low levels of the 60Hz AC supply frequency (fig.3), perhaps partly due to magnetic interference from the massive toroidal transformer that is the amplifier's heart.
Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/content/dartzeel-nhb-458-monoblock-amplifier-measurements#ktVgcoQz4ZlmJ4z8.99"

So quiet but by not the best. A real test is to hook up a pair to a pair of Avantgardes or other 100+db speakers and see how much hiss and hum you can hear from it. I know KR Audio gets somewhere around -98db noise figures and are quiet when hooked up to such speakers. NAT might be another story though...haven't heard them hooked up to super sensitive speakers though (my NAT was not deathly quiet on my Odeons though and neither is my NAT Plasma).

There will be much more done to Mike's Dartzeels.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ooh Dave, Dart and Yps in Wales! Quite a coup
I've always loved Ypsilon ever since I got a v rare pr of SET100s and the matching pre for trial 4 or 5 years back
A model of transparency
Koda too was a v special experience a while back, tonal colours off the rainbow
My NATs just combine some of the best of these two brands with a v special tone density, slam and energy that's hard to beat
But, they're certainly not the quietest amps out there
My dilemma in this thread I truly believe is nothing to do w component-borne noise, w my NATs my Eera cdp is highly transparent and artifact-free, it's only on my tt am I surmising noise may be an issue because of perceived lack of last degree of transparency and ease
Hence my conclusion that short of spending a fortune on additional professional acoustic works, and being happy my power is maxxed to the hilt, it's the tt I need to address, if indeed I have to (continual tweaking of things is opening up my analog sound)

Ked, I would truly love to have considered the J Sikora Reference at a later date, but it's pre launch price of sub £10k has more than doubled to £20k, costlier than the GP Monaco 1.5, and more relevantly the Kuzma XL DC and Brinkmann Balance
W it's lack of provenance, it's just a non starter at that price
Sorry, you know I love to support an underdog against the big boys, but that price just precludes consideration

 

[wisnon]

A while ago I remember reading about Mike's room on audiogon (I think?) and how he initially got in a pro acoustician but later did a lot of diy additions and adjustments to the room treatment, I seem to remember him commenting on how his diy latter work made a big difference.

I treated my room after quite a bit of research, one of the sites that I found helpful was .... http://realtraps.com/howto.htm

As to ss v valve for noise - ss is not necessarily quieter. I did compare various ss phonos with my ARC ref2 stage some were as quiet others not. My Dartzeel pre with phono was not nearly as quiet as my current Ypsilon phono (4valves)

Dave did you have the version 2 Dart Pre? Its quite a bit better than version 1 and a lot quieter too, from what Mike and Herve told me.

 

[andromedaaudio]

There will be much more done to Mike's Dartzeels.

??
Afaik the s/n ratio of An amp is a given , unless you wanna change design /circuitry
I expected IT to Be better, my cat is even better in that regard.
ARC is really quit for tube Gear, but they have a different design using fets/tubes .

 

[dctom]

Dave did you have the version 2 Dart Pre? Its quite a bit better than version 1 and a lot quieter too, from what Mike and Herve told me.

Yes I should have pointed that out - it was a latter model of version 1. I am sure the model 2 is quieter, even so it is a good example of how ss is not necessary the quietest.

 

[bonzo75]

??
Afaik the s/n ratio of An amp is a given , unless you wanna change design /circuitry
I expected IT to Be better, my cat is even better in that regard.
ARC is really quit for tube Gear, but they have a different design using fets/tubes .

Mike will have custom designed his amp - on S/N I wouldn't particularly know but I know he has some tweaks in it, isolation etc, so he might have more. Best to confirm. He was a beta tester for Darts, IIRC, so would have more time to tune things in.

 

[bonzo75]

Yes I should have pointed that out - it was a latter model of version 1. I am sure the model 2 is quieter, even so it is a good example of how ss is not necessary the quietest.

I am not saying it always is - and the Ypsilon is considered the best. If you read Alrainbow's posts (and he hears a lot of noise through his earphones), the Lampi with certain valves goes quieter than his MSB stack. With certain it is noisier. But with valves the issue of hum and microphonics is higher. IIRC Marc you were getting some hum in the previous flat, or some sound, at low levels?

Btw on Utopia - don't let go of that preamp.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Mike will have custom designed his amp - on S/N I wouldn't particularly know but I know he has some tweaks in it, isolation etc, so he might have more. Best to confirm. He was a beta tester for Darts, IIRC, so would have more time to tune things in.

If Mike s amp was involved in the design ( i dont doubt that )wouldn t then get the Final production run those benefits?

 

[bonzo75]

If Mike s amp was involved in the design wouldn t then get the Final production run those benefits?

Best to ask him, as his gear gets tweaked a lot.

 

[dctom]

But with valves the issue of hum and microphonics is higher. IIRC Marc you were getting some hum in the previous flat, or some sound, at low levels?

I agree Ked. As you mention the Lampi, that is another example, it is quiter than my old PB mps 5

 

[spiritofmusic]

Not so much hum, but some tube rush, most likely from the Utopia
My Zus are 101dB eff, so certainly audible between tracks, but not an issue mid-music
It's an issue Peter and me are trying to sort
My hunch is it's not the issue that my be the "perceived" transparency difference btwn my analog and digital
I'm more and more realising my whole system is open to fine tuning w new tubes and resistors in my NATs monos, dedicated lines, the transformer coil, my brand new stylus, all to still bed in, and other gear still not fully up to speed after being in cold storage for over a year

 

[morricab]

Being subjectively "quiet" is not exactly the same thing as a signal to noise ratio measurement. As referred bizarre power devices and cables have a strong influence in quietness, but do not affect the measurements. The measurement is however useful to avoid combinations that can produce hiss and hum.

Witch particular KR model are you addressing? The KR measurements of SNR of VT8000 published by Stereophile were very poor.

Current models like VA350i, Kronzillas, VA340 etc. There is a review on by Marja and Henk where on their horns a KR was dead silent and I think it was well over 100db/watt speaker. I have demonstrated this myself on my 98db Odeons with a VA350.


For sure combinations that are unfavorable will give hum and possibly noise (like if the overall gain is too high).

 

[morricab]

There will be much more done to Mike's Dartzeels.

Are they modded?

 

[morricab]

Ooh Dave, Dart and Yps in Wales! Quite a coup
I've always loved Ypsilon ever since I got a v rare pr of SET100s and the matching pre for trial 4 or 5 years back
A model of transparency
Koda too was a v special experience a while back, tonal colours off the rainbow
My NATs just combine some of the best of these two brands with a v special tone density, slam and energy that's hard to beat
But, they're certainly not the quietest amps out there
My dilemma in this thread I truly believe is nothing to do w component-borne noise, w my NATs my Eera cdp is highly transparent and artifact-free, it's only on my tt am I surmising noise may be an issue because of perceived lack of last degree of transparency and ease
Hence my conclusion that short of spending a fortune on additional professional acoustic works, and being happy my power is maxxed to the hilt, it's the tt I need to address, if indeed I have to (continual tweaking of things is opening up my analog sound)

Ked, I would truly love to have considered the J Sikora Reference at a later date, but it's pre launch price of sub £10k has more than doubled to £20k, costlier than the GP Monaco 1.5, and more relevantly the Kuzma XL DC and Brinkmann Balance
W it's lack of provenance, it's just a non starter at that price
Sorry, you know I love to support an underdog against the big boys, but that price just precludes consideration

If you can get the transparency with digital then it is not the rest of your system...it is the analog rig (whichever part or parts is to blame).

 

[morricab]

If Mike s amp was involved in the design ( i dont doubt that )wouldn t then get the Final production run those benefits?

Oh, I do doubt it very much. Mike doesn't know anything about amp design I think...if I am wrong I apologize in advance but I am pretty sure he didn't do anything regarding the design. I also don't think he has a super special custom version with dramatically lower noise floor.

 

[morricab]

Marc, if you want the lowest noise TT then it is really clear:

Kenwood L07-D: S/N -94db (DIN-B)
Yamaha GT-2000: S/N -85db (DIN-B)
Pioneer Exclusive P3: S/N -78db (DIN-B)

For comparison:

Brinkmann Balance 2: S/N -66db (DIN-B)

Interestingly, most of the new, super high end TTs do not even publish a noise spec. I looked at Kronos, Continuum, Kuzma, Grand Prix Audio and Wave Kinetics and none of them publish speed or noise figures. Brinkmann does and they are no better than a mid level TT from 40 years ago.

A few of the old TTs have noise levels comparable to cd and speed stability that is better as well.