Sliding force???

ack

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Thanks for your very detailed explanation, Tasos. Very well expounded and it's quite clear to me now, re your AS device and how it works. It's good to know that you are getting good use from it, and that is a very good thing.

Here's more along the same lines from the Analogue Productions Ultimate Test LP

IMG_4071.jpg
That Track 1, as it says, increases in amplitude over time, and the tone must remain clean.

The most important quote in there I thin is "Both linear and modulated groove velocity, tracking force, stylus profile and vinyl composition are contributing factors"
 

Catcher10

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Here's more along the same lines from the Analogue Productions Ultimate Test LP

View attachment 65071
That Track 1, as it says, increases in amplitude over time, and the tone must remain clean.

The most important quote in there I thin is "Both linear and modulated groove velocity, tracking force, stylus profile and vinyl composition are contributing factors"
Thanks Ack.....I use this test record for several setup steps including AS. I listen thru headphones on this track and currently the signal stays clean, the last 4-5 seconds I hear a very slight distortion at that +12db amplitude. I have played with both the AS and VTF to see about eliminating it but no success yet. I'm not too concerned about it as again it happens right at the end. I check my Delos stylus about 3x a year under scope and it has no uneven wear......I think I'm good with it.
 

ack

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I am coming back to this topic after months-long experimentation.

First of all, with my arm, anti-skating IS OBVIOUSLY REQUIRED, the differences between ON and OFF are substantial, and the effects of proper anti-skating can be summarized as follows:

- Tracking on both channels is significantly improved, and distortion is much lower; there is evident mistracking without, especially with hard-playing piano
- Clarity is also significantly better in the entire frequency range
- Probably unexpected, but the bass is evidently a lot more controlled, more well-defined and not boomy at all. I have to admit this was a bit shocking to me. The differences here are rather staggering - from plucked upright bass, to bass drums and timpani

All of the above also re-iterates that the tonearm is of paramount importance, for this and many other reasons.

So my current anti-skating force is based on tests with a blank disc again, aiming for a very slight slide across the surface, and of course, countless listening tests.
 
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jadis

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After 200 or so hours of breaking in my new MG3.7i's , I have found that they are more 'revealing' than the old MG2.7s, more detailed, and now I begin to hear a very little bit of 'grain' or slight edge around the singer. Instrumental LPs, classical and jazz, does not exhibit such character, so I thought of adding some AS force via my Linn Akita 3B AS dial. For more than a year, it has been set at 0 and was sounding fine. Setting it at 0.25 didn't do much to alter the sonics, so I added some more, to 0.50, and right there, the vocals were rounder, and no more grain or edge around the vocals. Well, it works. As I mentioned earlier, my main concern has been the 'bending' of the cantilever inwards when more AS force was added ( on day 1 was set at 1.80) which was why I set it to 0 based on the advise of a Linn user group member. Right now at 0.50 I like how it sounds and the cantilever looks straight. This seems to be a better alternative to adding more weight on the VTF, like from 1.80g to 1.90g on my Koetsu Urushi. Right now, I'm set at 1.85g with the max setting being at 2.0g
 

ack

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That's great Phil!
 
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jadis

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These past few weeks, a good friend and I were in some quandary regarding a certain Koetsu which was bought as used by another friend and it looked like this:

viber_image_2021-06-13_13-47-34.jpg

Notice a slight skew of the cantilever to the right, or outward of the spindle, which means that there was a lack of Anti-skate force. So we tried to find out where it will 'deadlock' on the SME 309 tonearm by means of a blank record. Surprisingly, even at the max setting of 3.0 AS force, the arm/cartridge still slides inward, with AS at zero, the slide was very fast. My friend tried it in an FR64 arm where at 2.0 AS, there was a deadlock on the blank record. Based on another friend's recommendation, the AS was set at 2.5 on the FR64 with VTF at 1.9g, it was played for many many hours until the skew kind of moves to the center. And it worked. I believe that if left alone, the skewing will become greater and distortion on many parts of a record will eventually show up. This is a case where AS force is needed to preserve the stability of the cantilever, and the cartridge itself.

Another cartridge which had a greater outward skew, in fact was exhibiting distortion in many parts of the record, according to the owner. So this was a worse scenario resulting from a lack of Anti skate force.

v2.jpg
 
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Jul 1, 2020
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These past few weeks, a good friend and I were in some quandary regarding a certain Koetsu which was bought as used by another friend and it looked like this:

View attachment 79064

Notice a slight skew of the cantilever to the right, or outward of the spindle, which means that there was a lack of Anti-skate force. So we tried to find out where it will 'deadlock' on the SME 309 tonearm by means of a blank record. Surprisingly, even at the max setting of 3.0 AS force, the arm/cartridge still slides inward, with AS at zero, the slide was very fast. My friend tried it in an FR64 arm where at 2.0 AS, there was a deadlock on the blank record. Based on another friend's recommendation, the AS was set at 2.5 on the FR64 with VTF at 1.9g, it was played for many many hours until the skew kind of moves to the center. And it worked. I believe that if left alone, the skewing will become greater and distortion on many parts of a record will eventually show up. This is a case where AS force is needed to preserve the stability of the cantilever, and the cartridge itself.

Another cartridge which had a greater outward skew, in fact was exhibiting distortion in many parts of the record, according to the owner. So this was a worse scenario resulting from a lack of Anti skate force.

View attachment 79065
Hi Phil,

A few comment for you that I hope you will find helpful.

First, a cantilever like that is highly suggestive not of excessive skating forces but of a bent suspension wire (or, perhaps, a cracked/shifted suspension damper). This cartridge is in definite need of repair and no amount of anti-skating force will fix the internal problem. Skating forces alone - even at, say, 5gm VTF, will not permanently deform a cantilever like that. (my rationale follows later in this post)

Secondly, the blank record test for skating/anti-skating is HIGHLY variable and not at all reliable since skating force is a function of coefficient of friction which is itself a function of VTF, stylus profile, tonearm length, distance from center of record, vinyl formulation and a few other less influential factors. You could take two different cartridges with varying stylus profiles on the same tonearm and record, have the same VTF applied to both and witness varying skate velocities on a grooveless record. In this example, skating velocity depends upon the surface area and surface profile of the part of the stylus that touches the grooveless record.

The last time a coefficient of friction test was done was in the 1970's (separately by Shure, Bruell and Ortofon, if I recall correctly.) They all arrived at similar findings: namely, that anti-skating should be at about 10% of VTF to provide the best AVERAGE anti-skating force during playback. See the bottom article HERE for a bit more info: https://www.wallyanalog.com/blog

So, consider the 10% figure and apply that to my example above of having 5gm VTF. In this example of 5gm VTF, you'd only be living with - on average - 0.5gm of skating force. A constant 0.5gm horizontal force isn't enough to damage a cantilever suspension like that. That cantilever has taken a whack by something and it hasn't been the same since.

I have purchased most of the equipment to perform a coefficient of friction study of our own. I think it is necessary to re-do this experiment as stylus profiles have become much more severe since the 1970's and therefore will have different coefficient of friction during play. There are a few other attributes that I'd like to measure (musical genre, vinyl treatment formulas, etc.) that can influence coefficient of friction that I think may be worth testing as well. When this test is done, I'll present the data and write a JAES paper on it for peer review.

Cheers,
J.R.
 

jadis

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Apr 28, 2010
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Hi Phil,

A few comment for you that I hope you will find helpful.

First, a cantilever like that is highly suggestive not of excessive skating forces but of a bent suspension wire (or, perhaps, a cracked/shifted suspension damper). This cartridge is in definite need of repair and no amount of anti-skating force will fix the internal problem. Skating forces alone - even at, say, 5gm VTF, will not permanently deform a cantilever like that. (my rationale follows later in this post)

Secondly, the blank record test for skating/anti-skating is HIGHLY variable and not at all reliable since skating force is a function of coefficient of friction which is itself a function of VTF, stylus profile, tonearm length, distance from center of record, vinyl formulation and a few other less influential factors. You could take two different cartridges with varying stylus profiles on the same tonearm and record, have the same VTF applied to both and witness varying skate velocities on a grooveless record. In this example, skating velocity depends upon the surface area and surface profile of the part of the stylus that touches the grooveless record.

The last time a coefficient of friction test was done was in the 1970's (separately by Shure, Bruell and Ortofon, if I recall correctly.) They all arrived at similar findings: namely, that anti-skating should be at about 10% of VTF to provide the best AVERAGE anti-skating force during playback. See the bottom article HERE for a bit more info: https://www.wallyanalog.com/blog

So, consider the 10% figure and apply that to my example above of having 5gm VTF. In this example of 5gm VTF, you'd only be living with - on average - 0.5gm of skating force. A constant 0.5gm horizontal force isn't enough to damage a cantilever suspension like that. That cantilever has taken a whack by something and it hasn't been the same since.

I have purchased most of the equipment to perform a coefficient of friction study of our own. I think it is necessary to re-do this experiment as stylus profiles have become much more severe since the 1970's and therefore will have different coefficient of friction during play. There are a few other attributes that I'd like to measure (musical genre, vinyl treatment formulas, etc.) that can influence coefficient of friction that I think may be worth testing as well. When this test is done, I'll present the data and write a JAES paper on it for peer review.

Cheers,
J.R.
Thanks for the inputs, J.R.
Very informative.
 

Yeti

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Dec 25, 2020
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I had a Dynavector 17D2 where the contilever ended up skewed inward and twisted slightly. It was enough to unbalance the channels.
In the days of my entry level decks (Gerrard sp25 and Micro Seiki DD24) I just set the bias scale to the value that matched the tracking force, this was OK when the cartridge cost £15 and a new stylus even less. When I upgraded to a Rega RB300 at the end of the eighties I used the same method as I’d never heard of anything else and this was how it was set with the aforesaid DV. I took it to the local dealership to trade it in for a new one, apparently it was common knowledge that Rega’s calibration of the AS scale was rather too high, not common enough for it to have reached my ears though. They suggested using the blank record method and I happened to be offered a job lot of classical records around then including something from EMI called “the enjoyment of stereo” (EOS) which had a blank track just for this purpose. I say blank but there is a very shallow spiral on it, though the AS is meant to be adjusted so that the stylus stays put. I suspect it’s location a bit over a third of the way in isn’t random but whetever… The Rega set to close to 1 on the bias scale stayed put on this with VTF at 1.95g on the new DV 17D2 mk2. I wore that cartridge out without the the cantilever taking any permenated set despite the cartridge being sent bouncing across a few discs in its time. Next ip was a swap to a Naim Aro with weight and string AS, that was easy, just use the notch that sounded best but when checked with the enjoyment of stereo bias track there was pretty good agreement.
The 17D2 became a 17D3 after I forgot to lift the arm and went on holiday for 2 weeks and then curiosity resulted in a Tramsfiguration proteus. A switch to a Schröder reference meant a continuous range of adjustment again by twisting the thread but setting it with the EOS track a d minor tweaking by ear got me 5 years and the cantilever was still in line.
With Transfiguration consigned to history the problem of how to follow it now arose, Ana Mighty Sound quoted for a retip with original parts so in the interim I thought something radically different might interesting and as the Reference’s effective mass could be increased to 18g with a brass cartridge mount an SPU Royal N was ordered. Setting VTF to around 3g and trying to set bias with the EOS track by twisting the thread didn’t seem to work so I set it more or less where the Proteus had worked and convinced myself this would do. A year later and the cantilever is skewed outwards and there is sibilence on the right channel so the SPU is back in Denmark for a rebuild and the old 17D3 is on the Reference, bias again set with the EOS track and a very minor tweak by ear. When the SPU comes back I’ll have another go at setting bias on it but this time readjusting the magnet gap to compensate for the twist shortening the thread, then tweak by ear. The replicant stylus has a considerably greater major radius than Dynavectors microridge of the Ongura, combined with a higher tracking weight I’m not at all certain it will be right but it will do to start with.

Ekkehard Strauss runs a blog (https://medialux.blog/) on various audio topics, his review of SPUs had some influence on my decision to try one and he’s recently started one on alignment which I’m following with interest.
 
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mtemur

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Ekkehard Strauss runs a blog (https://medialux.blog/) on various audio topics, his review of SPUs had some influence on my decision to try one and he’s recently started one on alignment which I’m following with interest.
I can not believe that some people still recommending using space at runout groove for antiskating adjustment. there are matrix numbers etched on vinyl there. it is impossible to know if the arm is moving because of being catched by groove or matrix number or skating force. this method might cause your stylus to be damaged by etched matrix numbers let alone leading to wrong antiskating adjustment. it is no better than using grooveless record. stylus profile is not put into consideration either.
 
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Yeti

New Member
Dec 25, 2020
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10
3
France
This is the track I use as my Starting point.
EB8F7A05-3557-44B2-A5EF-972123B58A43.jpeg
Rather than the leadout land, which as you say can be hazardous territory.
When I’ve not used this method I’ve ended up with a skewed cantilever. The HIFI News and Record Review test record results in too much antiskate.
 
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mtemur

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When I’ve not used this method I’ve ended up with a skewed cantilever. The HIFI News and Record Review test record results in too much antiskate.
I think it's not exactly a groovless part and may be used for antiskating adjustment when there was no dedicated tool. it reminded me Shure test record III which has a track just like that for antiskating. Shure antiskating track looks like it has shallow grooves and leads you to a better adjustment than a flat disc. not a perfect option but better than nothing.
 

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