Sliding force???

I accidentally happened upon an ECM LP with a blank fourth side ("Into The Silence")

1547148458222.png

and notice what happens:


Then I enabled and adjusted anti-skating to tame it:


I know ddk has designed his platter to provide a sliding effect to some degree, but I thought mine was excessive. Still trying to assess possible sonic effect.
 
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jadis

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I use very little anti skate, most of the time none. One could argue that some anti skate could provide more focus however there are tradeoff with and without. I usually use the gauge to get the VTF in the ballpark. I usually set by ear.
The key word is 'little' and 'some' anti skate. How little is little , and what is 'some' on those with an AS dial (which I read is not a universal measurement, like 1.0 in one tonearm can be the equivalent of 2.0 to another) or the string weight assembly. It all becomes subjective as even adjustments by 'visual' - how fast or slow the arm/cartridge slides inward at the deadwax, is not a fixed standard. The biggest question to me if it 'by ear' is that, what do we listen for, to determine where the AS force (if ever) is set?
 

ack

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So, thinking about this some more, did we discuss what happens with a linear arm and a blank disc? Are there any videos? And if they don't slide, why should we allow our pivot arms to slide?
 
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So, thinking about this some more, did we discuss what happens with a linear arm and a blank disc? Are there any videos? And if they don't slide, why should we allow our pivot arms to slide?
Good questions, i am interested aswell.
 

PeterA

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Here’s a guess. Is the offset angle in the friction which is creating the skating force. Those two conditions do not apply to linear tracking tone arms.

Anti-skating is meant to compensate for that lateral force. One might have to apply too much anti-skating force to a conventional pivoting tone arm to get it not to slide Inward on a blank track. That overcompensation will do more damage than good when playing a record to the record itself and to the cantilever suspension or stylus of the cartridge.

One force is pulling the stylus in one direction while the other force is pushing the arm out in the other direction. Those forces meet at the upper end of the cantilever/suspension and I can’t imagine it is good.
 
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ack

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One force is pulling the stylus in the other force is pushing the arm out. Those forces meet at the upper end of the cantilever/suspension and I can’t imagine it is good.
I am not sure it's that simple; for one thing, anti-skate does not interact with the stylus, it interacts with the arm.

The more I think about it, the more [I think] I realize that there _should_ be some slide, and as much as it takes to make the mass of the arm glide "naturally", so that the cartridge won't have to -pull- the arm's mass in the direction the grooves tell it to, or -push- it back. On that basis and under that assumption, no anti-skate just doesn't make any sense for a pivot arm with an offset angle; and total equilibrium with a blank disc also doesn't make any sense. Also under that assumption, a linear tracker with no natural slide also doesn't make sense - and I believe this has been one of the main criticisms about them.

So I would say that "some" anti-skate is always necessary with pivot arms with an offset angle, and the magnitude of the force is probably a factor of the total pivot mass (arm and cartridge) in conjunction with the length of the arm (which affects inertia), and of course the offset angle. There's got to be some math around it, which should very precicely define that anti-skate force for the mass combination of cart/arm, plus factors in the total inertia (where the arm's length is part of it) and the offset angle...

I suspect this may have been discussed before, so I may be unwillingly parroting here
 
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PeterA

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Sorry Tasos my post was incomplete and I just edited it. My point was the skating force acts on the stylus cantilever and the anti-skate force acts on the arm and that conflict happens at the suspension.

Of course the longer the arm the lower the offset angle in the less skating force if all else is equal.

With a linear tracking arm The cartridge is always tangent and just follows the groove which is seized as a straight line from beginning to end. For greatest single generation I would think in an ideal condition the cartridge would not move and the stylus cantilever would move wildly tracing the grooves.

This is just my speculation.
 
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miniguy

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Dec 18, 2013
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I am not sure it's that simple; for one thing, anti-skate does not interact with the stylus, it interacts with the arm.

The more I think about it, the more [I think] I realize that there _should_ be some slide, and as much as it takes to make the mass of the arm glide "naturally", so that the cartridge won't have to -pull- the arm's mass in the direction the grooves tell it to, or -push- it back. On that basis and under that assumption, no anti-skate just doesn't make any sense for a pivot arm with an offset angle; and total equilibrium with a blank disc also doesn't make any sense. Also under that assumption, a linear tracker with no natural slide also doesn't make sense - and I believe this has been one of the main criticisms about them.

So I would say that "some" anti-skate is always necessary with pivot arms with an offset angle, and the magnitude of the force is probably a factor of the total pivot mass (arm and cartridge) in conjunction with the length of the arm (which affects inertia), and of course the offset angle. There's got to be some math around it, which should very precicely define that anti-skate force for the mass combination of cart/arm, plus factors in the total inertia (where the arm's length is part of it) and the offset angle...

I suspect this may have been discussed before, so I may be unwillingly parroting here
Don’t forget about the stylus shape as a factor. A modern line contact type stylus will cause a significant increase in skating force over a simpler shape such as a conical stylus.
 
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PeterA

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Don’t forget about the stylus shape as a factor. A modern line contact type stylus will cause a significant increase in skating force over a simpler shape such as a conical stylus.
Is that because of the greater contact area equaling greater friction?
 

jadis

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Zero movement, zero oscillation, I've never seen anything like it.

Wobble free, no shat.

View attachment 64939
I had the Eminent Technology linear air bearing tonearm for 26 years, and I never even had to care about anti-skate. The manual says, your tonearm is the level, if it is correct, your arm/cartridge should not skate inward or outward. And that was how it was, as mentioned in this post.
 

jadis

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I just remember, there is a Souther linear arm which I think was bought by Clearaudio and I was told the design is that 2 rollers slide towards the center with a slight downward tilt. There is a gravitational slide and I imagine the VTA will be slightly higher at the start of the record than the end part.
 

jadis

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I'm not sure if this has to do with anti-skate but I was saw a guy who would make sure that when he cues up and down a track, it stylus would fall exactly at the same spot of part of that song/track, and not be ahead or behind that spot.
 

kach22i

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I just remember, there is a Souther linear arm which I think was bought by Clearaudio and I was told the design is that 2 rollers slide towards the center with a slight downward tilt. There is a gravitational slide and I imagine the VTA will be slightly higher at the start of the record than the end part.
Interesting, maybe that's why several linear tonearm advocates in the forum say they do NOT like the Clearaudio linear tonearms.

I do not know for sure as they never elaborated.
 
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PeterA

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There is no skating force applied to the stylus as it is in the air lowering down to the surface of the LP. But there should be skating force applied to the arm so maybe the guy who was watching for the stylist to land in the same spot was actually checking to see if the anti-skate force was too great. It seems like an odd way to do it.
 
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kach22i

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What is its bearing principle?
Tracking is wheels on rods like a model railroad engine, bearing of tonearm is some kind of gimbal.

There are 5 or 6 optical sensors, one of which in retrospect I may have activated by handling a flashlight while cueing up. One must read the manual or it can act like it has a mind of it's own. I guess it does in a way.

Tech info:
https://www.vinylengine.com/library/pioneer/pl-l1000.shtml

Just the tonearm on fleabay.

https://www.ebay.com/i/352835080771...81KH0zlvs6KEF4gfKj7wiCzh9yCtjrpIaAl9wEALw_wcB
s-l400 (2).jpg s-l400.jpg
 
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jadis

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Apr 28, 2010
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Manila, Philippines
Tracking is wheels on rods like a model railroad engine, bearing of tonearm is some kind of gimbal.

There are 5 or 6 optical sensors, one of which in retrospect I may have activated by handling a flashlight while cueing up. One must read the manual or it can act like it has a mind of it's own. I guess it does in a way.

Tech info:
https://www.vinylengine.com/library/pioneer/pl-l1000.shtml

Just the tonearm on fleabay.

https://www.ebay.com/i/352835080771...81KH0zlvs6KEF4gfKj7wiCzh9yCtjrpIaAl9wEALw_wcB
View attachment 64980 View attachment 64981
Wow. That is works today is amazing.
 

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