Sliding force???

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, do you mean cartridge weight or VTF? I think cartridge weight is compensated for by the arm's counterweight and basically the system is balanced until VTF is applied, independent of an individual cartridge's weight. Effective mass may be slightly more with heavier cartridges, but I think Anti-Skate or bias is more in response to the vertical tracking force being applied by the stylus onto the record.

there is a relationship between cartridge weight, cartridge suspension characteristics, and anti-skating and azimuth adjustments. the weights on the pivot arm are primarily related to azimuth, and the weight on the string is primarily for anti-skate, but they are interrelated, as is the tightness or looseness of the bridge clamp.

so it's all a system and done by trial and error. a tuneing sort of thing. i'm pretty good at it, jazdoc is the master. every time he comes over, he futzes a little and it gets a bit better.

the Tosca is child's play in comparison.

 

[kach22i]

I accidentally happened upon an ECM LP with a blank fourth side ("Into The Silence")

View attachment 47424

and notice what happens:

Then I enabled and adjusted anti-skating to tame it:

I know ddk has designed his platter to provide a sliding effect to some degree, but I thought mine was excessive. Still trying to assess possible sonic effect.

My first time seeing this thread, still reading it.

Earlier today I read an interesting comment in another forum.

Quote:
..........the amount of antiskate required varies through the LP radius as well as with the degree of signal modulation.

End Quote.

From here:
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index...ecessary-no-antiskate-damaged-records.336210/

 

[jadis]

My first time seeing this thread, still reading it.

Earlier today I read an interesting comment in another forum.

Quote:
..........the amount of antiskate required varies through the LP radius as well as with the degree of signal modulation.

End Quote.

From here:
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index...ecessary-no-antiskate-damaged-records.336210/

The whole quote is about the belief of VPI, which more and more, I tend to agree.

"VPI makes world class turntables and tonearms and for the longest time the designer refused to add antiskate to his tonearms feeling that any mechanism is at best a compromise since the amount of antiskate required varies through the LP radius as well as with the degree of signal modulation. He's only added the antiskate option recently I guess to pacify some potential customers."

 

[jespera]

The whole quote is about the belief of VPI, which more and more, I tend to agree.

"VPI makes world class turntables and tonearms and for the longest time the designer refused to add antiskate to his tonearms feeling that any mechanism is at best a compromise since the amount of antiskate required varies through the LP radius as well as with the degree of signal modulation. He's only added the antiskate option recently I guess to pacify some potential customers."

+1.

At best anti-skating on your tonearm cancels the average skate force acting on the needle.

At worst it just introduces more mechanical complexity and noise.

It is also, IMO, the reason why 12" arms sound better than 9". And why linear trackers can be even better.

It's not due to reduction in angular error in itself.

Here's an interesting "naive" tonearm that takes this idea to the max:

https://highend-electronics.com/products/viv-lab-rigid-float-tone-arm

I never use anti skating.

Jesper

 

[jadis]

+1.

At best anti-skating on your tonearm cancels the average skate force acting on the needle.

At worst it just introduces more mechanical complexity and noise.

It is also, IMO, the reason why 12" arms sound better than 9". And why linear trackers can be even better.

It's not due to reduction in angular error in itself.

Here's an interesting "naive" tonearm that takes this idea to the max:

https://highend-electronics.com/products/viv-lab-rigid-float-tone-arm

I never use anti skating.

Jesper

Interesting indeed. First time for me to such a design.

 

[kach22i]

The whole quote is about the belief of VPI, which more and more, I tend to agree.

"VPI makes world class turntables and tonearms and for the longest time the designer refused to add antiskate to his tonearms feeling that any mechanism is at best a compromise since the amount of antiskate required varies through the LP radius as well as with the degree of signal modulation. He's only added the antiskate option recently I guess to pacify some potential customers."

I read all 8 pages of this thread last night, and will be political and say that rest of that post is up to debate.

The part I referenced is concise in that it helps explain why some choose variable side force via string and pulley method.

 

[ack]

All I can say right now is that I continue to hear lower distortion by setting anti-skating on my magnetically-stabilized VPI arm, and moreover, as I have come to realize, there is a certain range of settings where VTF is maintained along the tracing arc much more linearly than outside that range. Right now, with the current anti-skating setting, VTF is virtually steady until the last few grooves.

 

[PeterA]

Tasos,
Why would vertical tracking force change during the course of playing a record?

 

[ack]

Tasos,
Why would vertical tracking force change during the course of playing a record?

That's how some arms work, as influenced by the wiring coming out of the arm, and possibly other factors

 

[PeterA]

That's how some arms work, as influenced by the wiring coming out of the arm, and possibly other factors

Thanks. I was completely unaware of that. I knew about bias not being constant, but not VTF.

 

[miniguy]

That's how some arms work, as influenced by the wiring coming out of the arm, and possibly other factors

The only way VTF can change across a record if the record is not totally flat everywhere, i.e., at the same height relative to a fixed point. Any other cause implies a seriously flawed tonearm design.

 

[ack]

Thanks. I was completely unaware of that. I knew about bias not being constant, but not VTF.

It's a design flaw; yours does not suffer from it

 

[PeterA]

It's a design flaw; yours does not suffer from it

That’s what I presumed. I know my two SME arms do not suffer from this.

 

[jadis]

I have seen a Dynavector DV 507 having a slightly heavier reading toward the end of the record. Now that it's mentioned, it could be the record itself that is the problem.

 

[jadis]

But then again, one can always check the VTF by not using a record and place the gauge directly above the platter.

 

[ack]

That’s what I presumed. I know my two SME arms do not suffer from this.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, I would put the Kronos Black Beauty (Helena too?), with the wires just hanging out back, and when you connect the interconnects the situation gets much much worse

 

[ack]

But then again, one can always check the VTF by not using a record and place the gauge directly above the platter.

Yes, this is how most of us do it, I would assume

 

[PeterA]

I put the scale directly on the platter. One has to account for the thickness of the LP versus the thickness of the scale measuring plate. If they are not the same you will not know exactly the vertical tracking force on the surface of the LP.

 

[miniguy]

I put the scale directly on the platter. One has to account for the thickness of the LP versus the thickness of the scale measuring plate. If they are not the same you will not know exactly the vertical tracking force on the surface of the LP.

This is true only if the arm is not designed with perfect neutral balance like the Graham. For arms that are perfectly neutrally balanced the VTF is independent of stylus vertical position.

 

[assessor43]

I use very little anti skate, most of the time none. One could argue that some anti skate could provide more focus however there are tradeoff with and without. I usually use the gauge to get the VTF in the ballpark. I usually set by ear.