Snake oil sales, I think we have a winner!

[fas42]

I think he's actually a member here....

Lest I forget --

Tim

Hmmm, wonder who Tim's thinking of -- no-one comes to mind at the moment ...

Of course, there is another strange group of audiophiles who believe that electrical circuits have magical properties of knowing whether signals that enter their domain should be ignored, or accepted wholeheartedly. So, for example if a circuit is placed in a very expensive, very thick metal case then it is immune from from low caste, poor cousin signals; automatically. Even better, if a very prestigious label is stuck to the front of the casing: this adds at least a 5 times improvement in resistance to unsavoury electrical input.

But the best one is when this circuit becomes part of a larger electrical circuit by having a plug inserted into a socket on the wall. This confers a tremendous increase of invulnerability, firstly because all that unpleasant stuff is hidden behind the wall, they can't see it, so it mustn't be there, and secondly, the unpleasant thing causing problems is a lot further away, gosh, it's in another room, those walls are at least 6 inches thick(!), and thirdly, you can always pull the plug out to stop the bad stuff getting through (hmmm, that didn't work so well after all, the sound level dropped rather dramatically ...)

At one time a suggestion was made to have a course which taught such interesting electrical behaviour to engineers, but for some reason the idea was shelved ...

Yes, there are some strange people who believe in such matters -- but I don't know where they hang out ... :b

Frank

 

[DonH50]

I've always liked the counter to pointing out all the wire from the generator to the house: "That doesn't matter, this power cord is the first thing your component sees!" I can think of several reasons why a power cord might make a diference, but few revolve around the last (or first) meter of the power line...

Wonder if there's a Tice Clock around...

 

[DonH50]

At one time a suggestion was made to have a course which taught such interesting electrical behaviour to engineers, but for some reason the idea was shelved ...
Frank

I believe it's called "Marketing 101"...

 

[fas42]

Wonder if there's a Tice Clock around...

You got me intrigued: I looked up a bit of Internet chat, and it makes perfect sense. The house wiring, and every electrical item plugged into it form a circuit, spread out a bit physically but still the real thing. The Tice Clock, like all electrical devices plugged in, will modify the harmonic content of the noise riding on the mains to some degree, and have an audio effect unless the designer of the audio gear went to extreme lengths to eliminate every ounce of the interfering effect of that mains noise. And we all know that manufacturers of audio gear have huge budgets devoted to sorting out these sorts of things ...

So the Tice Clock has, or had, an effect for many people. Fortunately, this was beneficial for many systems, and hence the seller of the device. A perfect example of what the effect of such an item in an audio setup will be like is here: http://www.stereophile.com/content/...trotec-ep-c-clocks-jack-english-february-1993. I'm very, very familiar with this scenario, having dealt with, and done many, many experiments coming to terms with this behaviour.

Frank

 

[DaveyF]

This is my second nomination...I actually went to the demo of these at the Newport Show last year: http://www.synergisticresearch.com/acoustic-art/acoustic-art-system/

Mr Ted Denney demonstrated the devices in the room and out of the room, making sure to have at least a few minutes between playback of the demo. Many in the audience were convinced that they heard BIG differences, for some unknown reason, I heard no difference whatsoever
I know I lost a few a'phile bragging points that day

 

[Soundproof]

The Acoustic Art system actually evolved from one of MachinaDynamica's practical jokes directed at audiophile gullibility. They proposed a Tibetan bell, if I remember correctly, and that caught on: voila, Acoustic Art.

I find Acoustic Art's use of various pure metals, and statements about the properties of the same, very amusing, particularly when correlated with their pricing.
They've dialed back on these claims after the first-gen, because it was so stupendously wrong. But there's still a considerable amount of wallet-mining going on.

 

[MylesBAstor]

I've always liked the counter to pointing out all the wire from the generator to the house: "That doesn't matter, this power cord is the first thing your component sees!" I can think of several reasons why a power cord might make a diference, but few revolve around the last (or first) meter of the power line...

Wonder if there's a Tice Clock around...

Vis a vis the Tice, I knew George and it wasn't snake oil. Unfortunately, it cost him credibility. For the record, I heard an effect with the Tice clock and didn't like what it did to the sound.

FYI, Nordost sells a similar type product and don't see anyone here knocking Nordost

http://nordost.com/98/qv2-ac-line-harmonizer

http://nordost.com/99/qx-power-purifiers

 

[MylesBAstor]

Well there are a lot of strange audiofiles , so he s just trying his luck.
There once was an audiofile which i met , who switched of all the power in his house exept the stereo for listening , it all disturbed the sound and he could hear it .
Another one is the dodgie cable business
there was also one who could hear if the crossoverwires were soldered or clamped together , soldering was degrading the sound , and the list goes on , its a strange world the audiofile world , it has some of the same charateristics as religion.

So you're telling us that soldering is perfect?

That the lengths that John Curl goes to when soldering is a waste of time?

That high pressure welds now being used in place of soldering are a waste of time?

That there wasn't any problem with the sound when manufacturers switched because of ROHS regs to use a non Pb solder?

 

[microstrip]

IMHO, although some products are clearly snake oil , such as a product that affects your system by telepathy or a bell that must be ringed at specific positions, we can not be so sure of many others.

As Myles is pointing, we (OK, must of us) clearly accept that some electrical phenomena of minimal importance in electrical engineering is of significant influence in sound quality. How can we immediately blame all acoustic mechanical resonators as bogus? I do not have none, but people owning them are as credible as any of us who spends more than usd 20 in a power or signal cable.

 

[FrantzM]

Micro

The Acoustic Arts thinggies from Synergistic Research are BOGUS, just like the Magic Pebbles or the Kombats dots... Those contraption, however, pretty that they are CANNOT affect the sound of a room... In another thread, you were discussing, knowledgeably I must add, the influence of tube traps and the size required for these to be truly effective.. I would infer from that you have a good knowedge of acoustics principle. What I find however amost amusing is the reflex to come to the defense of anything with some audiophile credentials... It is s if from your viewpoint .. Audiophile companies , ideas or myths (not your term, mine) are above criticism...

Audiophiles' gullibility is Himalayan as proven by such companies remaining in business for so long. There will not be a shortage of snake oil products in this industry... Food for thought: The differences between a Machina Dynamica and several well established audiophile companies and products are not as clear-cut as one would like to think

 

[FrantzM]

So you're telling us that soldering is perfect?

That the lengths that John Curl goes to when soldering is a waste of time?

That high pressure welds now being used in place of soldering are a waste of time?

That there wasn't any problem with the sound when manufacturers switched because of ROHS regs to use a non Pb solder?

Strawman arguments.. He never said any of what you posted.. You said it

 

[Ronm1]

Come on! Sanity and common sense in an audio forum snake oil thread. Your joking, mob rule and idiocy usually reign. No matter what highbrow face the forum places on itself, philes cannot help themselves. It's in the DNA!!!

 

[Soundproof]

Micro
The differences between a Machina Dynamica and several well established audiophile companies and products are not as clear-cut as one would like to think

Machina Dynamica is a practical joke, played by engineers on gullible audiophiles, to the engineers' great amusement - with customer letters and requests being read to gales of laughter during annual gatherings. They even made some money on their wildly phantasmagorical "tweaks".

Acoustic Arts dinglebells may be bogus, but they sure cost a lot of money, and keep popping up at exhibitions ...
The first generation version was naturally priced according to the value of the metal they came in.

Note that Gold and Special Gold are priced the same, but have very different effects. Why would I want slight compression when I can get no compression at the same price, and what's the difference between brilliant vs. bright, rich?

Then, ahem, someone pointed out that if it was the ability to respond with resonation that was an issue, then the more expensive metals were actually useless. There's a reason why we make brass wind instruments, but not gold or platinum instruments, for instance. They toned down the very discrete abilities of the various metals in later versions of the marketing, but the price differential is still there. Of course, they don't work regardless of the metal used, but that list above still makes me laugh enough to shake the floor.

 

[Steve williams]

Micro

The Acoustic Arts thinggies from Synergistic Research are BOGUS, just like the Magic Pebbles or the Kombats dots... Those contraption, however, pretty that they are CANNOT affect the sound of a room... In another thread, you were discussing, knowledgeably I must add, the influence of tube traps and the size required for these to be truly effective.. I would infer from that you have a good knowedge of acoustics principle. What I find however amost amusing is the reflex to come to the defense of anything with some audiophile credentials... It is s if from your viewpoint .. Audiophile companies , ideas or myths (not your term, mine) are above criticism...

Audiophiles' gullibility is Himalayan as proven by such companies remaining in business for so long. There will not be a shortage of snake oil products in this industry... Food for thought: The differences between a Machina Dynamica and several well established audiophile companies and products are not as clear-cut as one would like to think

IIRC, JV has one in his listening room.

 

[DonH50]

Re. Tice: I met George but never knew him nor he me. I don't even recall what he looked like, too long ago. The Tice power units were a good idea and forerunners of much of the power conditioning units today. At least there is some basis for power filtering, though its audibility depends upon the incoming power, the components, and of course our own bias. A store I worked at had them (the big Tice power units) and we did play around with them a bit, listening and taking measurements. The clock, however, never passed the DBT test, and nobody we tried was ever sure they heard a significant, repeatable difference. YMMV - Don

p.s. What about the little copper ribbons/braids/whatever you hang from the speaker terminals to improve the sound?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Re. Tice: I met George but never knew him nor he me. I don't even recall what he looked like, too long ago. The Tice power units were a good idea and forerunners of much of the power conditioning units today. At least there is some basis for power filtering, though its audibility depends upon the incoming power, the components, and of course our own bias. A store I worked at had them (the big Tice power units) and we did play around with them a bit, listening and taking measurements. The clock, however, never passed the DBT test, and nobody we tried was ever sure they heard a significant, repeatable difference. YMMV - Don

p.s. What about the little copper ribbons/braids/whatever you hang from the speaker terminals to improve the sound?

It is doubtful that most power conditioners would pass a DBT unless there was audible noise before the power conditioner was inserted in the system. I've had interference problems in my systems before. When you listen to headphones a lot, they are much easier to hear. When I've had them, I've taken care of them (though never with a power conditioner). But elliminating audible noise and inserting power conditioning in a quiet system, then hearing an expansion of the sound stage, better micro dynamics or greater inner detail are two very different things. One is finding practical solutions to audible issues. The other is on a plane with brilliant pebbles and temple bells. And I'd lay money down on the DBT every time.

Tim

 

[andromedaaudio]

I am not telling you if its better or not, i question the fact whether its audible or not , if somebody else can hear a clear difference good for him.
I have used high grade silversolder versus normal solder in speakerfilters and i cannot hear a difference , same with cables .
I am talking good quality copper strands with teflon coating versus expensive ones

I want to add that my loudspeaker filterwires are clamped anyway before they are soldered so there is some direct wire contact , i believe a lot of manufacturers do that as well , some are using printplates in filters ,does it improve/degrade the sound ??? .

So you're telling ue cables s that soldering is perfect?

That the lengths that John Curl goes to when soldering is a waste of time?

That high pressure welds now being used in place of soldering are a waste of time?

That there wasn't any problem with the sound when manufacturers switched because of ROHS regs to use a non Pb solder?

 

[FrantzM]

IIRC, JV has one in his listening room.

I am not surprised ..

 

[JackD201]

p.s. What about the little copper ribbons/braids/whatever you hang from the speaker terminals to improve the sound?

I know some people that swear by it. Not for me though. I don't want my speakers looking like baby Jedi padewans growing their padewan braids.

 

[microstrip]

Micro

The Acoustic Arts thinggies from Synergistic Research are BOGUS, just like the Magic Pebbles or the Kombats dots... Those contraption, however, pretty that they are CANNOT affect the sound of a room... In another thread, you were discussing, knowledgeably I must add, the influence of tube traps and the size required for these to be truly effective.. I would infer from that you have a good knowedge of acoustics principle. What I find however amost amusing is the reflex to come to the defense of anything with some audiophile credentials... It is s if from your viewpoint .. Audiophile companies , ideas or myths (not your term, mine) are above criticism...

Audiophiles' gullibility is Himalayan as proven by such companies remaining in business for so long. There will not be a shortage of snake oil products in this industry... Food for thought: The differences between a Machina Dynamica and several well established audiophile companies and products are not as clear-cut as one would like to think

FrantZ,

As you have now referred I have an open mind about sound reproduction, and I am very prudent about dis-classing something as snake-oil or bogus. The tread started with one that I could clearly endorse, I suggested a similar one, as no fundamental known physical principle could allow it to work.

However, as usual, the naive audiophile protection patrol is taking it as a trigger signal against tweaks that can be verified only subjectively. My point was that there is a lot I do not know about sound reproduction, and I can not justify in objective terms all the options in my system. Most probably some of these mechanical devices (not all of them, but please do not ask me which) will have an effect greater than my cables. We agree that the prices of most them are absurd, as well as the marketing techniques.

As an aside comment, if you take some of these devices, test them with with your state of the art finely tuned Burmester or similar system and tell me they did not affect sound in your system, I will learn something from you, specially if you tell me the recordings you used. But just reading that they can not work because they are smaller than tubetraps will only make me smile ... As usual, if you find that all of them do not work, I will take it with some caution, if you supply a list of those working and another of those not working, I will look more carefully. We are humans.

Yes, I am pro-audiophile. Otherwise I would not be reading and writing in WBF - I would be thinking about a way of connecting the "0"s and "1"s on my digital recordings directly to my nervous system using platinum wires to know the absolute truth.