Snake oil sales, I think we have a winner!

It is doubtful that most power conditioners would pass a DBT unless there was audible noise before the power conditioner was inserted in the system. I've had interference problems in my systems before. When you listen to headphones a lot, they are much easier to hear. When I've had them, I've taken care of them (though never with a power conditioner). But elliminating audible noise and inserting power conditioning in a quiet system, then hearing an expansion of the sound stage, better micro dynamics or greater inner detail are two very different things. One is finding practical solutions to audible issues. The other is on a plane with brilliant pebbles and temple bells. And I'd lay money down on the DBT every time.

Tim

Tim,

Take an old PSAudio P300 and P600 power re-generator with the multiwave option. Several of these power forms will change the sound of your system significantly. But none of them except one (a very asymmetrical one) produced audible noise in my system. And, no, I was not powering a turntable or tape player using a synchronous motor with it!
 
Tim,

Take an old PSAudio P300 and P600 power re-generator with the multiwave option. Several of these power forms will change the sound of your system significantly. But none of them except one (a very asymmetrical one) produced audible noise in my system. And, no, I was not powering a turntable or tape player using a synchronous motor with it!

You should have your system thoroughly measured and your power supply checked, because if these power conditioners are not eliminating a measurable, audible noise from your system or regulating the flow of a very inconsistent grid, and yet are creating a signficant difference in sound, they are probably adding something. You may like what they add, and if you do, good. But I'd sure want to know what was going on.

Tim
 
Hello Myles


So you're telling us that soldering is perfect?

Perfect compared to what?? If it's done correctly it is extremely reliable. Every airplane, tank, statelite, the space shuttle and now the space station is loaded with modules using this technology. It's everywhere because of it's reliability.

That the lengths that John Curl goes to when soldering is a waste of time?

Not sure what he does but taking your time is the right approach just don't keep the parts heated for an extended period of time.

That high pressure welds now being used in place of soldering are a waste of time?

What application? Are you talking gas tight crimps?? Say cable terminations??

That there wasn't any problem with the sound when manufacturers switched because of ROHS regs to use a non Pb solder?

I wasn't aware of audible issues just reliability. What kind of problems did the industry run into with the change over??

Rob:)
 
It is doubtful that most power conditioners would pass a DBT unless there was audible noise before the power conditioner was inserted in the system. I've had interference problems in my systems before. When you listen to headphones a lot, they are much easier to hear. When I've had them, I've taken care of them (though never with a power conditioner). But elliminating audible noise and inserting power conditioning in a quiet system, then hearing an expansion of the sound stage, better micro dynamics or greater inner detail are two very different things. One is finding practical solutions to audible issues. The other is on a plane with brilliant pebbles and temple bells. And I'd lay money down on the DBT every time.

Tim

I tend to agree... In the store the problem was the HVAC injecting some serious noise the power conditioners filtered out. Back in the shop, where I worked, I had built a little filter, but it didn't look as nice as the Tice blocks. :) We ultimately had to buy a filter because my homebrew, effective as it was, did not have a UL sticker on it.
 
Hello Myles




Perfect compared to what?? If it's done correctly it is extremely reliable. Every airplane, tank, statelite, the space shuttle and now the space station is loaded with modules using this technology. It's everywhere because of it's reliability.

Actually check mil specs. Very different. There's also some military research showing issues with soldered connections at low current levels. Hence the more stringent specs.


Not sure what he does but taking your time is the right approach just don't keep the parts heated for an extended period of time.

Search here, have posted his soldering technique already; it includes soldering under an inert atmosphere. In case some armchair EEs would like to challenge John, better come well armed. He is a walking encyclopedia on circuit design and had a library dwarfing some schools.



What application? Are you talking gas tight crimps?? Say cable terminations??

I thought we were talking about audio cables.



I was aware of audible issues just reliability. What kind of problems did the industry run into with the change over??

Rob:)

Reliability was one. It was so long ago don't remember specifics on sound.
 
Strawman arguments.. He never said any of what you posted.. You said it

No that is what he is saying if you believe his argument Frantz.
 
It is doubtful that most power conditioners would pass a DBT unless there was audible noise before the power conditioner was inserted in the system. I've had interference problems in my systems before. When you listen to headphones a lot, they are much easier to hear. When I've had them, I've taken care of them (though never with a power conditioner). But elliminating audible noise and inserting power conditioning in a quiet system, then hearing an expansion of the sound stage, better micro dynamics or greater inner detail are two very different things. One is finding practical solutions to audible issues. The other is on a plane with brilliant pebbles and temple bells. And I'd lay money down on the DBT every time.

Tim

Only we don't live in a perfect world.

I'm curious Tim: what PLCs you've auditioned? Or is this simply another bumblebee can't fly argument? Oh and what type of PLC are you talking about as designers have used different approaches to removing the trash in our electricity. I'm surprised that we don't get charged extra by the power companies. Oh and how do you also explain that using a PLC improves the picture on your TV?

Google PS Audio and look at the measurements of the electricity being fed to our audio systems that Paul has carried out. I'm curious as to what electrical measurements you've done because there are a hell of lot of data out there that show EMI, RFI (esp with cell phones and computers), switching signals, reflections of the 60 Hz wave, Power Factor, etc. on the electrical lines. God help you if you live in a city, the end of a grid or on a grid with a lot of manufacturing.

Maybe you're midfi equipment power supplies take care of all those issues, but us idiots who buy high end gear are just buying inferior equipment and don't know what we're hearing.
 
It is doubtful that most power conditioners would pass a DBT unless there was audible noise before the power conditioner was inserted in the system. I've had interference problems in my systems before. When you listen to headphones a lot, they are much easier to hear. When I've had them, I've taken care of them (though never with a power conditioner). But elliminating audible noise and inserting power conditioning in a quiet system, then hearing an expansion of the sound stage, better micro dynamics or greater inner detail are two very different things. One is finding practical solutions to audible issues. The other is on a plane with brilliant pebbles and temple bells. And I'd lay money down on the DBT every time.

Tim
Tim, that says it all. You really don't get it, as regards to improving sound quality. To you, unless something hits you over the head with a big stick then it ain't real. So, distortion isn't distortion unless it's screaming at you, threatening to blow out your eardrums, the idea that that something can be obvious, like a rock band playing in a small club space with everything mic'ed up, playing through a PA system that's trying to break every piece of glass in the place, but other things can be subtle, seems to escape you.

Expansion of the the soundstage is exactly what you get, and what you're aiming for, when you improve the quality of power in the area of an audio system. All the other stuff is living in same land as that band playing their gig, where the lead singer is laughing at the patrons who are covering their ears with their hands ...

Frank
 
dvdrewinderdevice.jpg

I'm afraid it is no longer in production but a good DVD rewinder is indispensable.
Connect it to a power conditioner for best results...
 
You should have your system thoroughly measured and your power supply checked, because if these power conditioners are not eliminating a measurable, audible noise from your system or regulating the flow of a very inconsistent grid, and yet are creating a signficant difference in sound, they are probably adding something. You may like what they add, and if you do, good. But I'd sure want to know what was going on.

Tim

Tim,

Your answer does not address my suggestion - I told you of an experiment any one can do showing that you can have changes in sound quality using mains variations that do not induce audible noise, and you suggest I have my mains checked. :confused: Perhaps I was not clear - do you know what was the multiwave option?

BTW, electronic equipment should be prepared to reject normal mains "defects" - engineers know mains is not perfect. But as far as I know there are no published studies on dependance of sound quality on mains noise and fluctuations - we can find just references about power versus mains voltage. But most of the designers will tell you the power supply is XX% of the quality (an high value but I will not risk starting a fight just because someone disagrees on 5% of the XX value)
 
Search here, have posted his soldering technique already; it includes soldering under an inert atmosphere. In case some armchair EEs would like to challenge John, better come well armed. He is a walking encyclopedia on circuit design and had a library dwarfing some schools.

I thought we were talking about audio cables.

Reliability was one. It was so long ago don't remember specifics on sound.
Yes, the killer is tin whiskers, very fine threadlike, crystalline growth of the tin metal. The photos of the stuff looks amazing, you wouldn't believe that metal would do things like this of its own accord. Grow far enough, bzzzzzzzzzz, lovely short circuit: bye, bye component ...

Materials in electrical circuits have a lot more complex behaviours then the simple Ohm's Law stuff; which the textbooks sort of ignore, or bury in appendices. But these are the sort of things which can make or break the quality of audio: pretending they're not there won't make them go away ...

Frank
 
Yes, the killer is tin whiskers, very fine threadlike, crystalline growth of the tin metal. The photos of the stuff looks amazing, you wouldn't believe that metal would do things like this of its own accord. Grow far enough, bzzzzzzzzzz, lovely short circuit: bye, bye component ...

Materials in electrical circuits have a lot more complex behaviours then the simple Ohm's Law stuff; which the textbooks sort of ignore, or bury in appendices. But these are the sort of things which can make or break the quality of audio: pretending they're not there won't make them go away ...

Frank

Back you went ;)
 
BTW, electronic equipment should be prepared to reject normal mains "defects" - engineers know mains is not perfect. But as far as I know there are no published studies on dependance of sound quality on mains noise and fluctuations - we can find just references about power versus mains voltage. But most of the designers will tell you the power supply is XX% of the quality (an high value but I will not risk starting a fight just because someone disagrees on 5% of the XX value)
I've posted this here before: Tim may have a fantasy of what mains power looks like, going by textbooks, but this is the reality:

http://www.acoustica.org.uk/other/mains_noise.html

Frank
 
Tim, that says it all. You really don't get it, as regards to improving sound quality. To you, unless something hits you over the head with a big stick then it ain't real. So, distortion isn't distortion unless it's screaming at you, threatening to blow out your eardrums, the idea that that something can be obvious, like a rock band playing in a small club space with everything mic'ed up, playing through a PA system that's trying to break every piece of glass in the place, but other things can be subtle, seems to escape you.

Expansion of the the soundstage is exactly what you get, and what you're aiming for, when you improve the quality of power in the area of an audio system. All the other stuff is living in same land as that band playing their gig, where the lead singer is laughing at the patrons who are covering their ears with their hands ...

Frank

That would say it all if I'd said anything, ever, about big sticks, being hit in the head, screaming, blowing out my eardrums or breaking glass. What I said, actually, is audible.

I'd love to get you in an AB/X test, Frank. You wouldn't hear a bit of what you rave on about every day unless you were making the move from utterly dysfunctional to getting by, which is what I suspect is the gist of most of your experiments.

Tim
 
I'd love to get you in an AB/X test, Frank. You wouldn't hear a bit of what you rave on about every day unless you were making the move from utterly dysfunctional to getting by, which is what I suspect is the gist of most of your experiments.

Tim
And you don't get why that wouldn't work either: the very nature of an AB/X would preclude getting good results because the actual mechanism, setup of the equipment used to run the test interferes with the quality, the nature of what you're trying to measure, compare. This may seem strange to non-scientists, who may believe that test instruments and switching mechanisms have a miraculous ability to disappear from the scope of an experiment. But scientists and engineers who have to get real measurements, of real but subtle behaviours, have enormous problems getting meaningful results: they spend staggering sums of money, create bizarre test apparatus which would an OTT tweaked audiophile's fairy castle look like a child's toy in terms of the attention of detail gone into. Just to get a reading, or result, which is real: not something influenced by the way the person looked at it, nor an authoritive looking, but completely off the mark, number on an expensive HP device with lots of knobs on it.

Frank
 
Frank,
you are over 50 years old,

you can't hear a normal functioning switch/relay contact in an ABX box especially after hearing more than 2% of distortion in the speakers and another .05% in the electronics and 20% or more in the rspeaker/room interface and then the actual goofy spectrum that each of those components adds to the mix.......and even if you were 17 you could not hear that ABX switch, but I am not picking on you, none of you can hear that switch (properly designed) on music....none of you, sorry dudes and dudets. Yes Frank, every signal is on an absolute level affected by each thing it comes in contact with but that does not mean you can hear it mate. Science also relates to our hearing ability too, though it seems to be oft forgotten.

OK, I mean, yeah, you will hear it, but your hearing claims will not be reflected in the test results...but yeah..some of you WILL hear that switch contact...some of you hear fuse polarity too.....OMG

Yes some tweaks are real, but human hearing is not in any way as accurate or consistant as folks seem to think....expectation bias rules.

Tom
Unfortunately I could hear it, over 25 years ago. That's what got me going in this game, way back then: no-one told me I should hear it; just that I would do something like reinserting a connection for some reason and I thought: "That's strange, the system is sounding a bit better just now, compared to what it was 10 seconds ago, what's going on?" It was as simple as that, and started the ball rolling, right up to now. Being intensely curious, and a pretty keen experimenter I kept on going with the business, trying everything to see if it made a difference, and blow me down, everything did!

Remember, I can still hear an 18kHz tone, not brilliantly but I know whether it's there or not. I warm up the HT with a CD test tone on repeat of that frequency in the morning, I don't reckon those cheap speakers are putting out within 3dB sound levels of those tones! But I have no trouble hearing it ...

How I have always heard the "problem" is the loss of high frequency clarity: solo violin, cymbals are a dead giveaway, once you know what to listen for it's extremely easy to pick. As it gets worse the sound acquires a deader, greyer, flatter tone: goes from sounding "real", to "hifi".

Frank
 
dvdrewinderdevice.jpg

I'm afraid it is no longer in production but a good DVD rewinder is indispensable.
Connect it to a power conditioner for best results...

I've got one. Ray Kimber gave them out as gifts many years ago at CES :)
 

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