Snake oil sales, I think we have a winner!

[MylesBAstor]

You know what I love the most about this site: those who have an opinion and have never heard the product being discussed in their system, much less anywhere! It's like they have the prescience of soothsayers, that unique ability to predict the unknown. Imagine if scientists had stopped at four elements.

 

[FrantzM]

Myles

Such products are a rejection of all science and exactly a return to the four elements or even less ... The Coconut thing, the Machina Dynamica Things...anything from Machina Dynamica are Bogus and so are many other "things" in High End Audio..If perchance the teleporation worked for you that is fine. I do however beieve that there has to be a level of bovine droppings that should trigger a financially healthy skepticism... wouldn't you think? It seems that for some everything makes a difference in their system, they don't ever want to consider the power of their own mind in shaping their apprehension of reality... perceiving phenomenons that often do not or worse cannot occur... This almost childish level of gullibility makes the existence of such utter nonsense and con artists possible .. Tibetan Bells?? Magic Pebbles ..Quantum Back Body... Really?? When will exorcisms be performed on system to remove ground loops?

 

[microstrip]

You know what I love the most about this site: those who have an opinion and have never heard the product being discussed in their system, much less anywhere! It's like they have the prescience of soothsayers, that unique ability to predict the unknown. Imagine if scientists had stopped at four elements.

Myles,
This thread reminds me of the blonde joke sessions of my youth. But I am not young anymore.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Myles

Such products are a rejection of all science and exactly a return to the four elements or even less ... The Coconut thing, the Machina Dynamica Things...anything from Machina Dynamica are Bogus and so are many other "things" in High End Audio..If perchance the teleporation worked for you that is fine. I do however beieve that there has to be a level of bovine droppings that should trigger a financially healthy skepticism... wouldn't you think? It seems that for some everything makes a difference in their system, they don't ever want to consider the power of their own mind in shaping their apprehension of reality... perceiving phenomenons that often do not or worse cannot occur... This almost childish level of gullibility makes the existence of such utter nonsense and con artists possible .. Tibetan Bells?? Magic Pebbles ..Quantum Back Body... Really?? When will exorcisms be performed on system to remove ground loops?

Anyone who reads the Coconut ad and thinks that it's anything but goof is ________________. Skepticism is healthy, if not the correct scientific process. But then again, the point is about having an opinion and not having listened heard the product being discussed.

 

[FrantzM]

Anyone who reads the Coconut ad and thinks that it's anything but goof is ________________. Skepticism is healthy, if not the correct scientific process. But then again, the point is about having an opinion and not having listened heard the product being discussed.

Myles

What about Machina Dynamica? or Lessloss Blackbody ? Do they need to be "auditioned" to assess their weight in _____________ ? (to use your elegant and greatly understood symbol )

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Originally Posted by MylesBAstor
Anyone who reads the Coconut ad and thinks that it's anything but goof is ________________. Skepticism is healthy, if not the correct scientific process. But then again, the point is about having an opinion and not having listened heard the product being discussed.

So you're suggesting that if we haven't listened to the coconut and the brilliant pebbles and the temple bells, we have no basis for skepticism? That is ____________.

Tim

 

[garylkoh]

I think that Myles' point is that healthy skepticism is good, but we need a proper scientific process before dismissing anything. I am not defending any of these companies, but just because it goes against all EXISTING "common sense" does not mean that it's snake oil. When Galileo stated that the Earth revolved around the sun, he was brought before the inquisition, forced to recant and retire. I don't think that the WBF has the authority of the inquisition, but yet we are passing judgement without even bringing the product before us.

Has anybody actually tried any of these products?

 

[FrantzM]

I think that Myles' point is that healthy skepticism is good, but we need a proper scientific process before dismissing anything. I am not defending any of these companies, but just because it goes against all EXISTING "common sense" does not mean that it's snake oil. When Galileo stated that the Earth revolved around the sun, he was brought before the inquisition, forced to recant and retire. I don't think that the WBF has the authority of the inquisition, but yet we are passing judgement without even bringing the product before us.

Has anybody actually tried any of these products?

Do you really mean that you think the Bell has some validity? Or the Coconut? Or the Lessloss Backbody or the teleportation tweak or the ... ? Am I reading you correctly? Please illuminate me . I have some interesting items for sale

 

[DonH50]

+1 to Gary, at least in part, but it cuts both ways... Something that violates known physics should be guilty until proven innocent. There are plenty of threads where the techie-types get blasted by those who say their ears trump all measurements and/or theory.

Now, before folk take it the wrong way, I think this thread is pretty much just for fun and to blow off some steam. I read the subjectivist threads but rarely comment since I rarely share that point of view. At least now; when I started I was all over it. HOWEVER, I have learned a lot over the decades from those who trusted their ears and led us (objectivists) to new understanding and better measurements and/or measuring methods. There's room for all, so long as we keep our sense of humor (humour?)

Oh, and yes I have tried the Tice clock, and his power products. Not much if any of the other stuff on this thread; too new, and no longer being in the biz I do not have the funds, time, or equipment for a lot of these things. I remain a skeptic (I'm from Missouri, so show me).

All IMO - Don

 

[andromedaaudio]

I dont have that much of an high opinion of the human hearing , this i posted a while ago in the " why audiophiles fear measurments thread " ;


Measurements can help to develop more enjoyable audio products .
I dare any " golden ear" audiofile to detect a 3 dB dip in a 200 hz - 10 khz frequency range within a 100 hz correct position
I bet a dutch windmill on it that nobody can .
Only a lucky guess maybe but certainly not 3 times in correct succesive order .
A good spl measurement/analyzer /tool can do it easily within 0,2 dB accuracy.

 

[FrantzM]

As in most hings in life: It is a matter of degree. If someone tells you he will sell you the Brooklyn Bridge, the odds are 1 to 10 with 36 zeroes that this person is pure ________________ But there maybe a chance that this could be true ... There is no absolute only probabilities but some probabilities are so small as to be easily approximated by zero in real life..
An odd and to me disturbing example.. it is entirely and physically possible to boil water in a pot and to have it become cold and turn to ice... Now! What are the probability of such an event? Well if ALL the atoms in the Universe were a stove with water over it, this even would not have occurred once since the beginning of the universe ... Same with the Coconut and Temple Bell and other __________ .. The odds are the same as winning the lottery and lotto and powerball everyday in every state and every time the drawings are held for the rest of one's life ( I suppose a life span of 250 years to make it more interesting) ..

Conclusion : It is an intellectual exercise in futility to consider these ________ at best it is a waste of neuron activity.. At worst it encourages the ___________itters, leeches and con artists who feed on the gullibility and good faith of audiophiles at the expense of those working on serious products that could advance the SOTA in Audio reproduction... There are people who have devoted thier ives to advance Audio Reproduction often single handedly.. We often give them much less attention than these _________.. One is consistently coming to my mind .. Ralph Gasgaall who has devoted a lifetime to ambiophonics .. There are many others ... for the record I have never heard or auditioned ambiophonics... I find the set-up weird and clashing with my aesthetics sensibility ...

 

[JackD201]

Poor naive me. I thought the entire Coconut Audio thing was nothing more than parody.

 

[garylkoh]

Do you really mean that you think the Bell has some validity? Or the Coconut? Or the Lessloss Backbody or the teleportation tweak or the ... ? Am I reading you correctly? Please illuminate me . I have some interesting items for sale

I don't KNOW that the Bell has NO validity, or any of these products.

I do know that I have been surprised by the audibility of somethings that I would have sworn could not be audible. And yes, it is audible blind.... with repeatability by any listener.

 

[DaveyF]

You know what I love the most about this site: those who have an opinion and have never heard the product being discussed in their system, much less anywhere! It's like they have the prescience of soothsayers, that unique ability to predict the unknown. Imagine if scientists had stopped at four elements.

Myles, you have an interesting point...to a degree.

About a year ago, I went to a meeting given by Albert Von Schweikert. At the meeting he brought to the attention of the group that the Shakti Stones were not a bogus product. Apparently, they do have a certain scientific method of interaction with the room/surround that Albert understood from a scientific standpoint and felt was valid.( I do not recall the science, but he did expand on it at the meeting). Since I have not heard these particular products, I couldn't offer an opinion, but they would certainly look bogus to the eye. OTOH, I think it would be valid to say that the Acoustic Art stuff from Synergistic Research is BS...at least IMO and I have heard it. ( or not as is the case)

 

[FrantzM]

Gary

Nor would you KNOW that the person selling the Brooklyn Bridge has it? What are the odds though? and would you send a Gen 1.1 as down payment for the Brooklyn Bridge? You would' ask for solid proof .. When someone tells me a coconut or a bell change the sound of my system . I will do the same thing .. Hold tight to my wallet and dismiss the person from the outset... You may choose differently but I am sure the gen 1.1 will also stay home in spite of the lure of said Bridge ...

 

[MylesBAstor]

I dont have that much of an high opinion of the human hearing , this i posted a while ago in the " why audiophiles fear measurments thread " ;


Measurements can help to develop more enjoyable audio products .
I dare any " golden ear" audiofile to detect a 3 dB dip in a 200 hz - 10 khz frequency range within a 100 hz correct position
I bet a dutch windmill on it that nobody can .
Only a lucky guess maybe but certainly not 3 times in correct succesive order .
A good spl measurement/analyzer /tool can do it easily within 0,2 dB accuracy.

So we repeatedly dismiss Mr. Fremer and Atkinson for example who have time and time again in DBT, shown things to be audible? Not that I think DBT are worth a hill of beans.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Maybe if you would understand what i wrote you would not give such a reaction.
One can hear if there is a 3 db dip somewhere in a 200 hz 10 khz freq range , although any golden ear audiophile who can point that dip out within a point of accuracy of a 100 hz gets a dutchwindmill .
And that 3 times in a row .
In practice ,if i would create a 3 db drop in the freq response of a speaker at say 3150 hertz ( in the crossover ), the listener would never be able to name it within 100 hz accuracy.

So we repeatedly dismiss Mr. Fremer and Atkinson for example who have time and time again in DBT, shown things to be audible? Not that I think DBT are worth a hill of beans.

 

[garylkoh]

Gary

Nor would you KNOW that the person selling the Brooklyn Bridge has it? What are the odds though? and would you send a Gen 1.1 as down payment for the Brooklyn Bridge? You would' ask for solid proof .. When someone tells me a coconut or a bell change the sound of my system . I will do the same thing .. Hold tight to my wallet and dismiss the person from the outset... You may choose differently but I am sure the gen 1.1 will also stay home in spite of the lure of said Bridge ...

If I was to buy it, sure. But this is the snake oil sales thread.....

All I am saying is that when someone tells me that the bell will change the sound of my system, I ain't gonna buy the sucker until I know that it works. There have been too many things through history that have been dismissed by "all sane thinkers" that have eventually been proven to be true for me to dismiss everything I don't understand off hand.

Wasn't the Machina Dynamica site set up as a practical joke? I know that we set up Audiophile Air (www.audiophileair.com) website up as a joke. It's a can of air (compressed air duster) that claims to improve the transmission of sound between the speaker and the listener using the same principles of how on a clear night a whispered conversation can heard clear across Lake Silvaplana in Switzerland. The can contains air collected from just above the surface of the lake on the night of a full moon.

I think that the problem is that [insecure] audiophiles grapple at straws and there are the unscrupulous who would milk them for all it's worth. Yes, we can discuss it as snake oil, but to dismiss it is not the scientific process. I believe that was the gist of Myles' point, and it was the gist of my point.

I knew I should have stayed out.... it was fun reading, but no fun being here.

 

[microstrip]

(...) I knew I should have stayed out.... it was fun reading, but no fun being here.

Gary,
Exactly my point about the blonde joke - at the moment you heard it you laughed, later you feel guilty of laughing.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I ve found another contender : http://ultrasystem.com/usfeaturedprodsWAquantum.html it might not be in the same league as machina dynamica but whatever

I thought quantum mechanics had something to do with this and not with adhesives costing a couple of $$$

http://atlas.ch/

Thats what you call science