Sound by Singer Closing or "Why the High End is Doomed, part 2"

Guys, If you can't make a deal with your landlord and you are doing well you don't close! You move! Rent is never the deciding factor in a business because if it is you are not going to make it. Without stores how is the business going to survive? Shows? Mail Order? Best Buy?
BTW Steve Circuit went out a long time ago! I think that the real crazy expensive gear may be able to exist via shows and factory showrooms but that is a very small amount of companies. The industry needs a new look and a new set of rules to do business by. I won't hold my breath.
 
This may reflect the reality of Manhattan -- very little middle class left (the whole country is following this lead), one 60K sale yields more than 10 2K sales
Some very good points, 20 years from now there may be very little left of the American middle-class.

http://www.zazzle.com/middle+class+gifts
american_middle_class_is_falling_on_bumper_sticker-p128654934091183856tmn6_210.jpg
 
I was quite surprised to see this. i have bought a lot of equipment at SBS (particularly over the last two years) - Like Frantz - i have had my ups and downs with SBS - i have spent more than ten years going in and out and must say i have learned a lot from Andy and he has given me the opportunity to listen for hours on end even when i wasn't buying anything and for that i am grateful to Andy. but i think the sales staff there got a bit soft and preferred a Wall Street guy with a bonus in his pocket vs. a person who wanted to do in home auditions. i pushed for some auditions in this recent buying spree and didn't get he coperation i wanted.

Overall, i agree with Myles - Andy was a pioneer in this field for NYC, he knew a lot and if you showed him respect he gave it back to you (usually in a customer oriented business it works the other way around - but that is Andy). i am sad he is closing and am not sure the lease is the real reason or not - not that it matters - side anacdote - i had one of Andy's sales guys giving me a 'special deal' which he could only hold for so long before the equipment jumped out the door - let's say 18 months later i bought that equipment at special deal plus...my point, i don't think the real high end equipment was moving over the last two years. having said that (sorry to ramble) i looked at his sales list and some of his high end pieces aren't there (Magico M5, Grand Utopias and Soulution gear, suggesting he has moved that equipment recently)

Brian is certainly right on one thing! The days of the Wall Street investment banker buying audio equipment with their bonus is long over and certainly affected the sales of not just SBS, but all the high-end (and let's face it, luxury goods as a whole) audio stores in the Metro area. In fact, I find it amusing that the Wall Street J. a while back started using plastic surgery as an economic indicator.
 
Come on guys, let's not go there.
 
Guys, If you can't make a deal with your landlord and you are doing well you don't close! You move! Rent is never the deciding factor in a business because if it is you are not going to make it. Without stores how is the business going to survive? Shows? Mail Order? Best Buy?
BTW Steve Circuit went out a long time ago! I think that the real crazy expensive gear may be able to exist via shows and factory showrooms but that is a very small amount of companies. The industry needs a new look and a new set of rules to do business by. I won't hold my breath.

Again this doesn't really apply in places like Manhattan, London, Paris, Hong Kong or Tokyo. You really don't know the existing rent or the new rent, and whether the lease was up because it was up for negotiation, or just up. Neither do I. So we are both speculating. I am just more willing to take Andy Singer's statements at face value because I've heard the same story time and again from all kinds of retailers in London.

One of my friends used to run a high-end office furniture store in Mayfair, London. The rental was set in 2003 at £360 per sq ft per year. Five years later, it was set at £1,100. Business was down about 25%, but that was sustainable. The business downturn and the rent rise combined was not. You can't move to a similar location, because the best you can get is price matching and then you have to factor a refit of the new store. This is not an isolated incident.

I agree that things need a huge shake-up in audio and in-fighting and petty politics will hold that back. But I think SBS's misfortunes are more the misfortunes of anyone trying to hold down bespoke businesses in financial metropolitan centers in a financial war zone.
 
I agree. The price of high end has gotten crazy and I'm afraid that the people who were buying that gear have fears that replacing the dollars that bought said gear is taking longer to replace, if at all. It is still about turns and earns. B & W has felt it with their new presence in Magnolia Stores. No one is immune. Mfg's making gear over $15K are going to have to rethink their marketing strategy. Just how small has their customer base gotten? I was surprised at some of the prices at the CA Audio Show.
 
I agree. The price of high end has gotten crazy and I'm afraid that the people who were buying that gear have fears that replacing the dollars that bought said gear is taking longer to replace, if at all. It is still about turns and earns. B & W has felt it with their new presence in Magnolia Stores. No one is immune. Mfg's making gear over $15K are going to have to rethink their marketing strategy. Just how small has their customer base gotten? I was surprised at some of the prices at the CA Audio Show.

A number of surviving manufacturers making products over $15k have rethought their marketing strategy. It's just that it probably doesn't involve you or me because neither of us live in Moscow, Hong Kong or Singapore. What happens to a US or EU marketing strategy largely depends on the economic recovery from country to country.

Given we now live in a world where the $220m apartment both exists and has clients fighting over it, the super-rich are clearly having no trouble paying for their toys again.
 
Does anyone know the time frame of Sound by Singer's demise? When are they officially closing the store?
 
Does anyone know the time frame of Sound by Singer's demise? When are they officially closing the store?

I think they've told their vendors Sept. 30th.
 
Amir keeps hinting at something. I remember several years ago (I think) when SBS was taking out 2 page ads that were pushing entire systems with creavtive financing. Steven had a way to put you into a system that you thought you could never afford. Now I don't know what the interest rates were or if you would ever pay the gear off in your lifetime, but I wonder if any of those deals came back to haunt SBS.
 
Amir keeps hinting at something. I remember several years ago (I think) when SBS was taking out 2 page ads that were pushing entire systems with creavtive financing. Steven had a way to put you into a system that you thought you could never afford. Now I don't know what the interest rates were or if you would ever pay the gear off in your lifetime, but I wonder if any of those deals came back to haunt SBS.

Listen, I think a lot is being made of the situation. While the economic downturn (and those IB getting all those bonus checks to buy cars, audio, apt. certainly dried up) had an impact, I think the I think all things being equal, Andy will be back in some way shape or form.

Now about his store. When Andy opened his store around 15 years at the 18 E.16th site, no self respecting person walked around the area (not much different than when Tower opened its store on Broadway and 4th St back in 1980). Crack heads called Union Square Park, just a block away from SBS, home. Few went near the area. Times have changed and that area is now a real chic chic area. Now the landlords down there are commanding big rents. Big stores like Whole Foods, Staples, H and M, etc have all moved into the area and as usual, the small businesses are forced to move.
 
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This past weekend I was fortunate enough to be visiting NYC and found myself in the neighborhood. This is indeed a very vibrant area. Academy Records, an excellent CD and LP store, is also nearby. I have always wanted to see SBS, so I stopped by the store. There really wasn't much going on. I was greated very courtiously and had a chance to look around. There was a small sign that referred to the closing of the store. Overall everything was low key. The music rooms are still all set up but there were very few customers on a Saturday afternoon.

High rents can be justified by high foot traffic and a high conversion ratio. But I don't think these are characteristic of high end audio retailing, and I do think that we will see the owner stay in the business, but in another form.
 
Sound By Singer is certainly getting lots of publicity on this forum and the Stereophile forum.

Bill

Possibly for good reason. SBS is/was probably the biggest grossing high-end audio stores. How many stores do you know sold six Gaku-Ons in one year? He was probably also the biggest selling Krell dealer out there. I think that's news.

Andy could make or break a product in the NY market. And he had some of the best products around at every price range.
 
Marty,
Why be the bearer of bad news, you should keep these kind of comments under lock and key. Just because we know about it doesn't mean we should tell the world who many of probably don't know. Lets give our hobby every chance to keep going instead of helping it to the grave!!!

Jay

Most audiophiles were first enamoured by spectacular sound reproduction from a particular "hi-end" system either at a dealer, or at the home of a friend who purchased such a system from a dealer. Once smitten, many audiophiles started frequenting dealers both in their region and outside their region to see and hear the very latest and newest gear on a regular basis. This was particularly true before there were regional Stereophile shows, or CES events that were open to the public. We also went to high end retail outlets to enjoy the pleasure of the company of other audiophile-minded folks like ourselves with whom we could share our trials and tribulations, including the economic frustrations of not being able to afford the latest gear! (All of us were poor at one time or another!). I remember that going to places such as Soundex in Willow Grove, PA and Chestnut Hill Audio in Philly on any given Saturday in the 80's not so much as an adventure in hearing audio gear, but rather, more like attending a social club. The same people were there every week. We not only professed our opinions on the latest gear, but shared much about the music we enjoyed. It's how I came to know a lot about music and musicians of which I was not previously aware. It was, for us, our community's "barbershop". There was genuine camaraderie among us.

It is with great sadness then, that I noticed a particularly famous hi-end retailer, Andy Singer of the veritable "Sound by Singer" in Manhattan, who appears to be closing his doors. After some pondering and reflection, I think I am disproportionately disturbed by this because it is a very real signal of the sea change many of us have been observing for some time now; which is namely, that the "hi end" as we know it is dying. Recall this is a specialty market that at best, 100,000 people belong to as potential customers. The realities of today's economy combined with dramatic improvement in performance of audio gear at reasonable prices that can now be easily obtained as a simple commodities and not as audio "art", allows the vast majority of folks to achieve excellent home music reproduction at affordable prices conveniently. (For part 1, see: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?757-The-B-amp-G-Z-92-or-%93Why-the-Hi-End-is-Doomed%94). No longer is there a need to go into the "sanctum sanctorum" of some arrogant ass of a hi end dealer and put up with "I am the guru, you are my pupil" crap, which is the way most of us broke into the hi end. If SBS closes for good (they claim they lost their lease and may yet emerge again as an entity that may or may not be the same as SBS), I will miss them. I bought my Siegfried's there and Andy Singer has always given me more than my share of the time of day for years even though I did not purchase stuff there regularly. Andy is the quintessential NY audiophile; literally a "bigger than life" dealer who commands respect from manufacturers and consumers alike. Show him a little respect and kindness and he will put himself out there for you and return that kindness by sharing knowledge that you can learn from. However, if you show him rudeness and attitude and you should expect to be ignored in return.

But here's the great paradox. The very thing that made SBS an enjoyable experience for knowledgable audiophiles is what helped kill it commercially. Average Joe is far more afraid of going into a place like SBS than they are of going into an automobile showroom. But you essentially have to go to a new car showroom to buy new car. However, audio gear (with the exception of the most esoteric audio gear) can be bought on-line or at a wide variety of consumer retail stores staffed by doting and friendly salespersons who are not particularly skilled, but are easily accessible. At their worst, they can push buttons and let you hear a lot of different equipment. At their best, well, sadly, it's typically no more than the fact they can push buttons and let you hear a lot of different equipment

Permit me, if you will, to make the analogy that specialized hi end audio dealers are like big pharmaceutical companies. For the past twenty years, big pharma has been a failing business, which is why there have been and will continue to be so many acquisitions and mergers in the industry. In fact, it is predicted that in 10 years, there may only be 5 or 6 big pharma companies left! The top 100 selling drugs cover only 40 pharmaceutical targets or classes and most big pharma companies do not have robust development pipelines with new compounds on their horizons. Some believe that the truly innovative compounds of the future are more likely to be discovered by small biotech companies than big pharma companies. I do not want to make this thread about drug companies, only to point out this analogy: I wonder- how many really specialized hi-end audio dealers will there be nationally in 5-10 years? The answer, sadly, is- probably fewer than there are now especially if the apparent fate of SBS offers any guidance. Here is one of the country's largest retailers (I am no longer referring to Andy Singer's suit size), in one of the most knowledgeable audiophile markets in the world, in one of the most affluent cities of the world, who can't seem to make it. What does that tell us?

I wish I could be more optimistic. But when giants such as SBS start to leave the earth, it seems to me the end of the dinosaur era is close at hand. Yup, I guess that those of us that love hi-end audio gear and have a few grey hairs are indeed dinosaurs. Lest we forget, dinosaurs ruled for a hell of a long time. But hey, everyone's number is up at some time, even hi-end audio dinosaurs and the retailers who served their kind.
Marty
 

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