Speakers for Kondo Ongaku... Please Help
- Thread starter Uwiik
- Start date
Oh yes, ESD Acoustics, almost non-existent in my mind; they did show up in 2019 at one of the audio show events. designs taken from Dr Bruce Edgar and Sam Saye were incorporated into the ESD Speakers. However, The ESD Acoustics are overly complex multiway 4 or 5 or 6 or 8 way systems using DSP in the crossovers. Not much news of them on the audio platform.
Yes, Dragon twice in Munich. First in 2018 and again the following year. First time they were in a room way too small for them, with expected results. The second time was also in one of the constructed spaces in the lower halls, but sounded a lot better that time. In fact quite promising. IMO none of the really big horn systems have ever sounded great, but that's the show limitations for you.
I liked slightly smaller Phoenix in 2019.
But it looks like their drivers use non-standard mounts, which means they can only be used with their own horns ?
Just curious...by DSP are you referring to time alignment specifically or all forms of digital crossover?
Anything that will manipulate the signal in the digital domain.
I think you are thinking of the Avantegarde model one re: DSP. The Avantegarde horns do not use DSP and are physically time aligned. I’ve never heard great reviews of the Avantegarde, btw…
Glad the Classic Audio sounds better than it looks - that’s the main thing, after all.
DSP is a bad idea if you are trying to minimize distortion and preserve the original signal, especially if the source is analog. Even with a digital source, if you are adding DSP between the amp and speakers, you are converting from A to D and back to A. These extra conversions are not a ”free lunch”. They will cost you in terms of adding noise, distortion, and other unwanted effects.
I have a totally analog system and have never really got into digital audio in my hi fi system at home. However, I don't agree with your statement. What kind of noise and distortion are you referring to ? I don't think A/D and D/A will add any harmonic or IM distortion. It will add quantisation noise, but given a high enough sampling rate, this noise is far out of band. I don't think there is any measurable noise or distortion that this process will add. This of course does not mean there is no audible artifact. We record with analog and digital simultaneously all the time. With a live mike feed and switching in and out of the A/D and D/A chain, nobody can tell the difference if done with high bit rate and depth. After recording the signal onto disc and then playing back is another matter. If you buy modern LPs, what you are often getting is an A/D and D/A process during disc mastering. This is because a digital delay line is often necessary when cutting the lacquer, unless the studio has a tape machine with a preview head.
What is true is that if you try to implement analog filters, you have to deal with phase shifts. This is not a problem if you do it digitally.
Its also possible to cut a record from tape with a fixed pitch and no preview channel at all. Sure less time per side but doable. I remember getting chastised by the late Tim De P ( by email ) when discussing this topic....he told me to basically man up and cut without preview 
The nasty 90s digital delay should be a thing of the past for most serious mastering studios these days.
On the other hand nearly everyone is mastering with both digital and analog tools and it is considered a non issue to convert a digital source to analog and back when mastering. Less common with a full analog recording but not unheard of to run through digital editing at some point....
DSP in loudspeaker management is usually not so successful IMO but I don't think it is due to distortion. Perhaps poor sounding conversion, poor sounding preamp sections and also using too much processing is to blame...
The nasty 90s digital delay should be a thing of the past for most serious mastering studios these days.
On the other hand nearly everyone is mastering with both digital and analog tools and it is considered a non issue to convert a digital source to analog and back when mastering. Less common with a full analog recording but not unheard of to run through digital editing at some point....
DSP in loudspeaker management is usually not so successful IMO but I don't think it is due to distortion. Perhaps poor sounding conversion, poor sounding preamp sections and also using too much processing is to blame...
Of course, otherwise it would not be possible to do direct to disk. However, many LPs nowadays are still done this way. Not the ones from Analogue Productions, Speakers Corner, Impex etc., but audiophile LPs are now the minority of the millions sold each year. I am using analogue crossover from Accuphase (F25), but I have heard their previous generation digital crossovers, and I couldn't hear any problem. DSP in loudspeaker is another kettle of fish, because frequency response anomalies due to cancellations cannot be equalised out.Its also possible to cut a record from tape with a fixed pitch and no preview channel at all. Sure less time per side but doable. I remember getting chastised by the late Tim De P ( by email ) when discussing this topic....he told me to basically man up and cut without preview
The nasty 90s digital delay should be a thing of the past for most serious mastering studios these days.
On the other hand nearly everyone is mastering with both digital and analog tools and it is considered a non issue to convert a digital source to analog and back when mastering. Less common with a full analog recording but not unheard of to run through digital editing at some point....
DSP in loudspeaker management is usually not so successful IMO but I don't think it is due to distortion. Perhaps poor conversion, poor preamp sections and also using too much processing is to blame...
I would never buy vinyl that has been digitally mastered in some way. I think that defeats the purpose of an analog source!Its also possible to cut a record from tape with a fixed pitch and no preview channel at all. Sure less time per side but doable. I remember getting chastised by the late Tim De P ( by email ) when discussing this topic....he told me to basically man up and cut without preview
The nasty 90s digital delay should be a thing of the past for most serious mastering studios these days.
On the other hand nearly everyone is mastering with both digital and analog tools and it is considered a non issue to convert a digital source to analog and back when mastering. Less common with a full analog recording but not unheard of to run through digital editing at some point....
DSP in loudspeaker management is usually not so successful IMO but I don't think it is due to distortion. Perhaps poor sounding conversion, poor sounding preamp sections and also using too much processing is to blame...
If you are converting A to D, and back again, you are completely changing the nature of the sound. Let’s not get into the differences between analog and digital content…
Unfortunately, in this hobby, especially in the ultra high end, everything makes a difference. You want that signal signal to be as unmolested and pure as possible. Converting A-D twice, right before the speakers — that is not good if you are aiming for output as close to what the live music sounds like.
I get that with some speakers and rooms you must use DSP, so there is a net improvement. But all things being equal, it’s better to change the design of the speakers and look at room treatment, so you can avoid DSP altogether. Now, if your source is digital, and you are using the DSP before conversion to analog, that’s a different story.
You’re totally incorrect on both accounts. To physically time align something, it must be adjustable (like Wilson’s top models) so the drivers can be adjusted to the listener’s seating position. Avantgardes are not adjustable.
In terms of using DSP, here’s the description from the Avantgarde website where it clearly states that they use DSP:
Subwoofer with DSP control! Yeah, because it is active and most have a crossover. I’m not talking about the subwoofer.
If you look at their higher end horns, you will see that each driver is physically time aligned. It doesn’t have to be adjustable. It is better to allow adjustability. What does that do? It allows the user to fine tune time alignment based on the listening position. But they are certainly time aligned if the drivers are aligned such that the sound travels to the same distance to some set listening point.
Sorry but that’s not how physical time alignment works. if you look at any horn speakers that are physically time aligned, they have proper adjustment. Look at the attached picture of the Cessero tweeter. And for final proof, no where on the Avantgarde site does it say they are time aligned.
Also the bass on the Duo is a mid bass (goes up to 200 hz) and provides midrange.
Physical time alignment does not require individual drivers to be adjustable. Adjustability helps fine tune the time alignment to the listening position, but it’s not necessary. If you look at OMA’s flagship horns, they are time aligned, but not adjustable. Same thing with the Avantegarde higher end horns.
Adjustability of the drivers is nice, but that’s not what makes them time aligned. You can sit the recommended distance from a time-aligned speaker without adjustability and it’s the same thing.
200Hz is not “midrange”, that’s well in the bass range. Midrange starts at 500Hz, generally.
Adjustability of the drivers is nice, but that’s not what makes them time aligned. You can sit the recommended distance from a time-aligned speaker without adjustability and it’s the same thing.
200Hz is not “midrange”, that’s well in the bass range. Midrange starts at 500Hz, generally.
Please show me one piece of data that says the Avantgards are time aligned, just one.
Just look at them! Note how all the drivers are lined up at their acoustical centers.
They also talk about it towards the start of this video:
They also talk about it towards the start of this video:
There is nothing on their website about the speakers being time aligned. If they were time aligned, they would mention it on their website and their marketing materials. It's really simple. Also, if you look at the OMA speakers, they are very drastically spaced out to be time aligned.
Have you owned Avantgardes?
