Speakers for Kondo Ongaku... Please Help

[jeff1225]

Here is one of the many blogs you can find on the web about modding the Avantgards top make them time aligned:

Audiogon Discussion Forum

I have had Avantgarde Trios for about eight years. They play music with the types of amplifiers that I enjoy, in a way that I like more than other speak...

forum.audiogon.com

So in the end, I have proven my statement with facts and posted examples. I've owned Avantgards and have experimented with them extensively. You are extremely stubborn and continue to fail to back-up your points. You can lead a horse to water.....

Good luck.

 

[Zeotrope]

Watch the video
they are obviously time aligned. They improved time alignment with the G3, based on their marketing.

No, I haven’t owned AvanteGarde, I refuse to spend that much for a plastic horn. A speaker is a musical instrument, and as such I believe it should not be made of ABS, not at their prices anyway.

 

[jeff1225]

Watch the video
they are obviously time aligned. They improved time alignment with the G3, based on their marketing.

No, I haven’t owned AvanteGarde, I refuse to spend that much for a plastic horn. A speaker is a musical instrument, and as such I believe it should not be made of ABS, not at their prices anyway.

I love the internet:

Surge1:
1. I can't post any actual data from their website about the statement I'm making
2. I haven't owned or used what I'm arguing about
3. I look at a picture on the screen and will argue about it.

Thank you for providing the morning entertainment.

 

[jeff1225]

What makes this conversation even more hilarious is that you own time aligned horns. Look how far back your tweeter is from the midrange, at least 12", maybe more. Avantgarde has their tweeter an inch back from the midrange, obviously just for looks and not for physical time alignment. Now I can see you are just arguing for argument sake.

Hilarious.

 

[Zeotrope]

Thanks for having the honor of being the only person on my Ignore list here.
You’re obviously highly insecure and don’t know what you don’t know.
Your knowledge is a mess, sorry to say; but brush up on Speakers 101 before commenting:
jeffrey_t
1. 200Hz is considered midrange - Wrong
2. for a driver to be time-aligned it has to be adjustable - Wrong
3. (something incoherent about DSP, subs, and time-alignment) - huh?

 

[Solypsa]

@Surge1 To be clear I agree with you, that a true all analog recording should be mastered to vinyl "all analog". My post was merely pointing out that the really bad sounding digital delay box that infected many records in the 90s is mostly a thing of the past for 'serious' vinyl mastering houses these days, and that no delay at all really need be used.

Also I mention an interesting side bar that a great many ( maybe most?) digital releases sees DA/AD in mastering and no one seems to notice, while the opposite ( AD DA ) *might* be useful depending on how the tape master actually sounds but is rare ( and for any vinyl mastering engineer I know of a last resort FYI ).

All in all I search for true AAA records, even from modern productions, but I do not as a matter of principle ignore all records that are not.

Are you using Bill Woods wood horn or his metal one? Love his work!

 

[Zeotrope]

@Surge1 To he clear I agree with you, that a true all analog recording should be mastered to vinyl "all analog". My post was merely pointing out that the really bad sounding digital delay box that infected many records in the 90s is mostly a thing of the past for 'serious' vinyl mastering houses these days, and that no delay at all really need be used.

Also I mention an interesting side bar that a great many ( maybe most?) digital releases sees DA/AD in mastering and no one seems to notice, while the opposite ( AD DA ) *might* be useful depending on how the tape master actually sounds but is rare ( and for any vinyl mastering engineer I know of a last resort FYI ).

All in all I search for true AAA records, even from modern productions, but I do not as a matter of principle ignore all records that are not.

Are you using Bill Woods wood horn or his metal one? Love his work!

Good points! Agreed.
I am using Bill’s wood horns. I subscribe to his views that conical horns with their constant/linear ratio or flare are best; but I know that’s not a universally held belief.

 

[jeff1225]

Thanks for having the honor of being the only person on my Ignore list here.
You’re obviously highly insecure and don’t know what you don’t know.
Your knowledge is a mess, sorry to say; but brush up on Speakers 101 before commenting:
jeffrey_t
1. 200Hz is considered midrange - Wrong
2. for a driver to be time-aligned it has to be adjustable - Wrong
3. (something incoherent about DSP, subs, and time-alignment) - huh?

It makes sense to ignore someone when you've lost an argument. My daughter used to do that in pre-school.

 

[microstrip]

(...) We record with analog and digital simultaneously all the time. With a live mike feed and switching in and out of the A/D and D/A chain, nobody can tell the difference if done with high bit rate and depth. (...)

Thanks for being so clear - I have read similar opinions elsewhere, but never in a audiophile forum.

Perhaps this would deserve a separate thread. Why do a professional loop A/D and D/A sound 100% transparent and we audiophiles need special D/A systems to listen in our systems? .

 

[Zeotrope]

Thanks for being so clear - I have read similar opinions elsewhere, but never in a audiophile forum.

Perhaps this would deserve a separate thread. Why do a professional loop A/D and D/A sound 100% transparent and we audiophiles need special D/A systems to listen in our systems? .

Nothing sounds 100% transparent - it’s just that we don’t know the difference, do we. If the mixing was done with A/D - D/A conversion and digital processing, it’s not like we can compare how it sounds without it, so we just take it as it comes.

 

[microstrip]

Nothing sounds 100% transparent - it’s just that we don’t know the difference, do we. If the mixing was done with A/D - D/A conversion and digital processing, it’s not like we can compare how it sounds without it, so we just take it as it comes.

I am not following exactly what you mean - just for semantics, IMHO if I do not feel any difference I call it "100% transparent" in such situation, even if such thing does not exist - perhaps I should not have written the "100%".

Are you saying that mic feeds are subjectively less susceptible to A/D and D/A processes than the final product?

 

[Zeotrope]

What I am saying is we cannot undo what the recording engineers did record to the tracks. So if they converted to and from digital, it doesn’t mean that conversion was “100% transparent”. It wasn’t - it is physically impossible for that to be true - but it may have been necessary and the overall result can still be very positive of course.

But this shouldn’t be the rationale that we can add another A-D-A conversion in the chain, and that there will be no sonic penalty if we do so. Of course there will be. But perhaps the gains will offset the negatives. See what I mean?

 

[morricab]

Please show me one piece of data that says the Avantgards are time aligned, just one.

Actually, both of you have misconceptions. A speaker can only be time aligned if the drivers are the same distance from the listener AND they are in phase. High order crossovers will disqualify from all sounds reaching the ear at the same time. There are several truly time coherent speakers (mostly from Thiel and Vandersteen) that don’t have adjustable drivers but assume a certain listening distance range to still deliver essentially coherent sound.

If Cessaro or Avantegarde use higher order filters they are NOT time coherent...same for Wilsons...you can adjust until the cows come home but without correct phase there will be no time alignment...period. This gets lost in the marketing blah blah and BS from JA in Stereophile but it’s physics.

 

[jeff1225]

Actually, both of you have misconceptions. A speaker can only be time aligned if the drivers are the same distance from the listener AND they are in phase. High order crossovers will disqualify from all sounds reaching the ear at the same time. There are several truly time coherent speakers (mostly from Thiel and Vandersteen) that don’t have adjustable drivers but assume a certain listening distance range to still deliver essentially coherent sound.

If Cessaro or Avantegarde use higher order filters they are NOT time coherent...same for Wilsons...you can adjust until the cows come home but without correct phase there will be no time alignment...period. This gets lost in the marketing blah blah and BS from JA in Stereophile but it’s physics.

Cessero. Time aligned and in phase.

 

[morricab]

Cessero. Time aligned and in phase.

How do you know?

 

[jeff1225]

How do you know?

It’s core to their design principles. You can read all about it on their website. Avantgarde, however, is not time aligned or do they claim to be on any of their marketing materials.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Actually, both of you have misconceptions. A speaker can only be time aligned if the drivers are the same distance from the listener AND they are in phase. High order crossovers will disqualify from all sounds reaching the ear at the same time. There are several truly time coherent speakers (mostly from Thiel and Vandersteen) that don’t have adjustable drivers but assume a certain listening distance range to still deliver essentially coherent sound.

If Cessaro or Avantegarde use higher order filters they are NOT time coherent...same for Wilsons...you can adjust until the cows come home but without correct phase there will be no time alignment...period. This gets lost in the marketing blah blah and BS from JA in Stereophile but it’s physics.

Exact,cabasse had already managed that 40 years ago, a time-correct physical baffle +time and phase-correct filter is not rocket science.

 

[Zeotrope]

Right

Actually, both of you have misconceptions. A speaker can only be time aligned if the drivers are the same distance from the listener AND they are in phase. High order crossovers will disqualify from all sounds reaching the ear at the same time. There are several truly time coherent speakers (mostly from Thiel and Vandersteen) that don’t have adjustable drivers but assume a certain listening distance range to still deliver essentially coherent sound.

If Cessaro or Avantegarde use higher order filters they are NOT time coherent...same for Wilsons...you can adjust until the cows come home but without correct phase there will be no time alignment...period. This gets lost in the marketing blah blah and BS from JA in Stereophile but it’s physics.

Right! We were just talking about time alignment. Even if you are perfectly phase aligned (which I think is impossible, across all frequencies), you still need time alignment. In other words, you need both physical time and phase alignment.
Phase can also shift at the preamp and amp… all fun stuff!

 

[morricab]

It’s core to their design principles. You can read all about it on their website. Avantgarde, however, is not time aligned or do they claim to be on any of their marketing materials.

There is not a single word on their website about time coherence or alignment. There are some pictures of a couple of new models with adjustable driver distances. As I have stated, this does not make a speaker time aligned if the crossovers are not appropriate. The crossovers are not discussed at all. So, maybe yes but probably no. No independent measurements available to see if their current models are remotely so (note the old models are mostly not adjustable...at least not easily.

 

[jeff1225]