SS Sound vs. Tube Sound (for the umpteenth time)

[mep]

As some of you know, I have been a tube lover basically my entire life. Within the last two years, I have made the jump over to the SS side of life and I’m still reflecting on the differences I hear and why. I really think this dovetails into another thread I started about purity and sterility.

One thing I know for sure, my current speakers sound best when driven by a SS amplifier. Even though they have powered subs, the amps are still driven via the speaker terminals and they very much take on the character of the main amp that is feeding the speakers. The differences in bass quality and extension when driven by even modest SS amps is fairly startling. In fact, inserting the Phase Linear 400 Series2 amp into my system was the beginning of the end for tubes in my system. And the funny thing is that my speakers have a very high sensitivity (92dB), a supposedly benign impedance of 8 ohms, and a powered sub which takes the stress away from the main amp for driving the sub. These speakers should have “tube compatible” written all over them. I suspect there are other things going on here that aren’t visible by looking at a spec sheet (imagine that). There is no doubt that once you hear my speakers driven by SS after having heard them with tubes that you realize these speakers ‘need’ to be driven by a SS amp.

For all of the purity my system now exhibits in terms of low noise (super low noise floor) excellent frequency extension from top to bottom with no mush in the bass or mid-bass, me thinks a little bloom has left the rose. Assuming this isn’t just an anomaly of my current speakers,that leads to the next question: are tubes adding some harmonics that helps flesh out the sound, the notes, the voices that makes them all sound more like what we hear in real life with live music? If so, how? Are harmonics being added by the tubes which should show up as harmonic distortion in their specifications? Or, are the harmonics really there and are somehow being scrubbed off by SS? I know that SS lovers will say that is nonsense and in fact, I know we have debated that here before. The simplistic answer would be to say that tubes are adding harmonics to the signal being played which makes it sound more fleshed out. Another answer would be that if I wasn’t listening to an archaic Krell KSA-250 amp and was listening to a modern SS amp the bloom would be back on the rose.

The low noise floor and linearity of SS are great things. Not worrying about tubes every time you power your system up for a listening session is a great thing. Knowing that your system is not going to degrade in sound quality from one day to the next is a great thing. Wondering if you have sold your musical soul to the SS devil and you are now skirting the line between sterility and purity is not a great thing.

And what made me reflect on all of this was primarily hearing the NOLA KO speakers. I think they are great, I have already expressed my opinion on that subject. But now I’m wondering how great I would think they sound if heard through SS electronics and not tubes. Do I love the way they sound because of the tubes or in spite of them? I have only heard them through all ARC gear (REF 5SE, REF 75, and CD-8) and $30K Nordost speaker cables (and I had no idea at the time I heard them the cables cost that much, I just knew they were Nordost).

 

[Gregadd]

I think you summed iy up nicely. While a the better tubedesigns are quiet.tube amp can be noisy. My problem with SS is the ones I like tend to be prohibitively expensive. SS fans tend to say the same thing about tubes.Luckily you have only to decide for yourself. If you were a reviewer you'd be in a lot of trouble.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Tubes , i bought the michael palin travels dvd box and with the zanden ,man i am back in the amazone and sahara

Note ,you have tubeamps and tube amps , execution of design is very important
The zanden is dead quit , if i turn up the volume to maxx there is no hiss to mention (ear at tweeter), phono stage might be another story , i ll find out when i get a zanden 1200
Another thing dont believe all the numbers manufacturers claim , your real numbers might be lower and yes the fact that the nola works well with a low powered tube gives it the advantage , it might sound a lot drier driven by SS.
Getting a real high eff speaker easy load offers a lot of possibilities.
With a good speaker match the 300B can give the same dynamic slamm as my boulder and then some (tube magic), inserting a pre grips it even more but i lose some of the transparency.

My believe is that good tube designs have transparency and speed that ss cannot match,which is quite important for a feeling of " intimacy"

But i havent heard all whats possibe this is just my expirience uptill now

 

[LL21]

Tubes , i bought the michael palin travels dvd box and with the zanden ,man i am back in the amazone and sahara

Note ,you have tubeamps and tube amps , execution of design is very important
The zanden is dead quit , if i turn up the volume to maxx there is no hiss to mention (ear at tweeter), phono stage might be another story , i ll find out when i get a zanden 1200
Another thing dont believe all the numbers manufacturers claim , your real numbers might be lower and yes the fact that the nola works well with a low powered tube gives it the advantage , it might sound a lot drier driven by SS.
Getting a real high eff speaker easy load offers a lot of possibilities.
With a good speaker match the 300B can give the same dynamic slamm as my boulder and then some (tube magic), inserting a pre grips it even more but i lose some of the transparency.

My believe is that good tube designs have transparency and speed that ss cannot match,which is quite important for a feeling of " intimacy"

But i havent heard all whats possibe this is just my expirience uptill now

Nice one! I have a teeny hiss from CJ at full volume but i need to walk up to my speakers and actually turn my ear towards the tweeter (6 inches) and even then its soft. If someone is pouring water in the middle of the room, it becomes hard to hear over the noise.

 

[A.wayne]

I'm a 300b fan also , the problem is getting that special match , rare , but it does happen , disagree about tubes having the speed and detail of SS, they will do intimate better , speed, power and punch for realism...

no ..!!!


Regards ,

 

[LL21]

I'm a 300b fan also , the problem is getting that special match , rare , but it does happen , disagree about tubes having the speed and detail of SS, they will do intimate better , speed, power and punch for realism...

no ..!!! Regards ,

Have you found in your experience there is as much a difference on "speed, power and punch for realism" when comparing tube v ss preamps, as opposed to comparing amps (tube v ss)? the reason is, mainly out of my own experience, i have ended up with tube preamp and SS Class A amp.

 

[A.wayne]

Yes on the amps , not clamp down sure on the pre's .....!!!

Tubes are marvelous on intimate , putting you "there " as oppose to bringing them "here" . Top solid state does both imo, i have never had tubes that boogied , not that they cant , (my MC3500 were good here) they can't as well as SS stuff ..

Tubes do have an advantage ( technically) for superior Pre-amp drive and bandwidth, so I'm not surprised about the popularity of tube pre's , whats amazing to me is the lack of more hybrid amplifiers , best way to go IMO...

 

[mep]

Tubes do have an advantage ( technically) for superior Pre-amp drive and bandwidth, so I'm not surprised about the popularity of tube pre's , whats amazing to me is the lack of more hybrid amplifiers , best way to go IMO...

Please explain to me how tubes have a technical advantage for superior peamp drive and bandwidth over SS. Whatever superiority tubes may or may not have over SS, I don't think it will be found on a spec sheet.

 

[TBone]

I've been a tube lover basically my entire life. Within the last two years, I have made the jump over to the SS side of life and I’m still reflecting on the differences I hear and why. I really think this dovetails into another thread I started about purity and sterility.

One major problem with the tube vs SS debate ... is the blanket statement mentality that basically assumes that each type must include a particular characteristic sound, one that MUST be defined by either being SS or Tube in nature. In doing just that, you will either minimize or eliminate any or all important individual characteristic that define the sonic differences between individual designs. And as you've pointed out, it also ignores any synergistic requirements, such as your speakers. Basically, in general , I consider the vast majority of SS vs Tube debates far too simplistic in scope, and therefore ... meaningless.

The low noise floor and linearity of SS are great things. Not worrying about tubes every time you power your system up for a listening session is a great thing. Knowing that your system is not going to degrade in sound quality from one day to the next is a great thing. Wondering if you have sold your musical soul to the SS devil and you are now skirting the line between sterility and purity is not a great thing.

IMO, Noise Floor characteristics should be an overall system objective. Granted, components differ in terms of noise floor characteristics, but in general, noise floor characteristics are neither tube or SS dependent. In my travels, a the appraisal of a systems noise floor characteristics is defined by it's power-line to component architecture and just, if not more important, the quality of it's source components.

tb1

 

[microstrip]

One major problem with the tube vs SS debate ... is the blanket statement mentality that basically assumes that each type must include a particular characteristic sound, one that MUST be defined by either being SS or Tube in nature. In doing just that, you will either minimize or eliminate any or all important individual characteristic that define the sonic differences between individual designs. And as you've pointed out, it also ignores any synergistic requirements, such as your speakers. Basically, in general , I consider the vast majority of SS vs Tube debates far too simplistic in scope, and therefore ... meaningless.
tb1

+1

 

[mep]

One major problem with the tube vs SS debate ... is the blanket statement mentality that basically assumes that each type must include a particular characteristic sound, one that MUST be defined by either being SS or Tube in nature. In doing just that, you will either minimize or eliminate any or all important individual characteristic that define the sonic differences between individual designs. And as you've pointed out, it also ignores any synergistic requirements, such as your speakers. Basically, in general , I consider the vast majority of SS vs Tube debates far too simplistic in scope, and therefore ... meaningless.

While this sort of sounds like an enlightened response, SS and tubes do have characteristic sounds that are easily demonstrable. For instance, do you really think for one second that the bass from a tube amplifier can remotely approach a really good SS amplifier in terms of frequency extension, linearity, and slam?

IMO, Noise Floor characteristics should be an overall system objective. Granted, components differ in terms of noise floor characteristics, but in general, noise floor characteristics are neither tube or SS dependent. In my travels, a the appraisal of a systems noise floor characteristics is defined by it's power-line to component architecture and just, if not more important, the quality of it's source components.

While I agree with your statement that noise floor characteristics should be an overall system objective, I couldn’t disagree more with your statement that noise floor characteristics are neither tube or SS dependent. Tubes inherently have a higher noise floor than SS and that is just a fact that some either don’t know or choose to ignore. There is a reason that most modern tube preamps and power amps use JFETs on the input side of the circuit in order to increase gain and lower noise. My power line to component architecture doesn’t change in my room (a dedicated listening room with a separate service panel from my main house), but yet the noise floor will change when switching from tube to SS gear.

 

[TBone]

For instance, do you really think for one second that the bass from a tube amplifier can remotely approach a really good SS amplifier in terms of frequency extension, linearity, and slam?

Well, that's not a relevant question ... simply because it assumes that ALL SS amps have superior frequency extension, linearity ... and "slam" (I prefer instrumental impact). It's far too dismissive!

Tubes inherently have a higher noise floor than SS and that is just a fact that some either don’t know or choose to ignore. There is a reason that most modern tube preamps and power amps use JFETs on the input side of the circuit in order to increase gain and lower noise. My power line to component architecture doesn’t change in my room (a dedicated listening room with a separate service panel from my main house), but yet the noise floor will change when switching from tube to SS gear.

When I talk "noise-floor" characteristics, I refer to a systems inner ability (or inability) to not swallow, hash over, or fog over very tiny details ... like those that define venue.

With regard to the above context ... the noise floor potential of my system is therefore defined via its power-line to system component architecture, which utilizes a limited star type grounding scheme, with specific components purposely lifted from ground. It's unique to my systems architecture. Each component is separated from the mains via a dedicated PLC, which more importantly separates each component from polluting the other. Connection quality (very much related to noise floor) either from a power or signal transfer perspective has been refined accordingly.

Personally, I consider all the above aspects of "noise-floor reduction" far more important that a components utilization of either SS or Tube. Within this type system, noise floor characteristics are therefore more defined based on it's source component delivery.

tb1

 

[mep]

TBone-For obvious reasons, I give up in responding to your statements. I can’t introduce facts in a vacuum where it’s forbidden.

 

[TBone]

TBone-For obvious reasons, I give up in responding to your statements. I can’t introduce facts in a vacuum where it’s forbidden.

Good Idea, considering you've consistently confused "general speculation" with "facts".

Look, I actually agree with you regarding some aspects of SS vs Tube ... however I refuse to simplify in terms of black or white on this particular subject matter because that's been done far too consistently all over the net. Why ignore all the possible variables that add many levels of gray to the mix?

tb1

 

[microstrip]

While this sort of sounds like an enlightened response, SS and tubes do have characteristic sounds that are easily demonstrable. For instance, do you really think for one second that the bass from a tube amplifier can remotely approach a really good SS amplifier in terms of frequency extension, linearity, and slam? (...)

Mep,
As you I have large experience with Krell power amplifiers. Even at low power levels their bass was unique. Can you explain why in terms of frequency extension, damping factor and distortion? Sorry, but slam is not accepted for technical debates. If it was I would tell you that used with adequate speakers Atmasphere OTLs have fantastic slam, better than most SS.

I remember than once debating with Ethan about treatments for correcting absence of slam in the bass frequencies he warned that sometimes in order to correct some bass deficiencies we have to look around 300 Hz.

 

[mep]

Facts usually are black or white without shades of grey, Please tell me what general speculation I confused with facts.

 

[mep]

Mep,
As you I have large experience with Krell power amplifiers. Even at low power levels their bass was unique. Can you explain why in terms of frequency extension, damping factor and distortion?

With regards to the Krell KSA-250, I can only surmise it's due to the incredible power supply. The bass sounds incredible because the power supply is incredible. And I use the word "incredible' because any amp that can keep doubling down the power each time the impedance is halved all the way down to .5 ohms and 4kW has an incredible power supply.

 

[A.wayne]

Please explain to me how tubes have a technical advantage for superior peamp drive and bandwidth over SS. Whatever superiority tubes may or may not have over SS, I don't think it will be found on a spec sheet.

Started to answer your question POS iphone killed it , lost the whole post , another reason against sand ...

 

[mep]

Started to answer your question POS iphone killed it , lost the whole post , another reason against sand ...

At least you tried.

 

[A.wayne]

With regards to the Krell KSA-250, I can only surmise it's due to the incredible power supply. The bass sounds incredible because the power supply is incredible. And I use the word "incredible' because any amp that can keep doubling down the power each time the impedance is halved all the way down to .5 ohms and 4kW has an incredible power supply.

Firstly and technically the krell doesnt double down for every halving of load , close but not technically true , now back to toobs ..

Toobs are Technically superior to SS in two most critical areas ,

1. Toobs are Highly linear without negative feedback, specially some small-signal types, hence they are excellent for pre's and amplifier VAS stages ..this is a huge advantage for tubes....( where are the hybrids )

2 Clipping is smooth, which is widely considered more musical than transistors, for this reason A 100 watt toob amp can sound more powerfull than a 200 watt ss, because you can actually push a toob amplifer into a 3db overload situation before the sound becomes offensive , where at 50 % of rated output on an SS amp would have most heading for the volume control knob , to reduce the offensive grunge ..

There's more , but i dont go for more than 2 uppercuts per post ...