Sorry Tony, I’m not sure I understand why 70ohms is ideal. Are we trying to match the ideal loading for my specific cartridge?
SUT for Ortofon Verismo?
- Thread starter Delkat
- Start date
The Verismo seems to sound best on my system when the MC load is 200 ohm. Are you saying the higher turns ratio of 1:30 is equivalent to the load the cartridge sees when set for MC at 50ohm and that may sound worse than the 1:15 which gives the cartridge an easier load to drive?
The higher the system impedance of the cartridge, the worse it works with SUT. The higher the transmission ratio, the worse the bandwidth of the SUT. Greater inductance also causes greater stray capacitance. With your basic gain (51db) I would not go higher than 1: 20. Your Ortofon cartridge (0.2mV/7 ohm) is a special case, normally modern ortofon cartridges have around 5 ohms with more then 0.35mV output voltage. I would load the cartridge with factor 20 (140 ohms) as startpoint.
Exsample a lundahl with 1:16 is close to that
www.don-audio.com
Exsample a lundahl with 1:16 is close to that
Lundahl LL1941 Armorphous Core Moving Coil Input Trasformer, 270,55 &
Turns ratio: 1 + 1 : 16 + 16
www.don-audio.com
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I'm saying it will be different, not necessarily worse. If your cartridge sounds best loaded at 200Ω, then a 1:15 SUT comes closest to providing that load in conjunction with a 47kΩ MM input. Someone else might prefer the sound of it loaded otherwise.
Something I'm not clear upon is whether a recommended load for an MC input is directly translatable to the effective load via SUT/MM input—I think it is. My VAS One SUT has two inputs, which have different transformer taps at 1:10 and 1:15, and it's clear to me that I like the sound best using 1:15, which is closer to the recommended loads for my cartridges than the 470Ω presented by the 1:10 input. But none of them is a Verismo! I see Ortofon recommends an impedance load of 10Ω. A 1:30 SUT will give a load of 52Ω, which is closer than lower turns ratio transformers. Your ears will have to decide.
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Lots of trial and error in getting the best performance. Also there are varying views on what should work best and why. If you don't have a SUT it may be hard to decide what to try first.
Using a Hana Umami my Icon Audio SUT (1:10, 100ohms) I thought everything sounded pretty good but I always wondered what a slightly higher turn ratio might offer.
Now that I am using a Ortofon SPU Classic GE Mk 2 which is a low sensitivity and internal impedance (0.2mv/2 ohm) the Icon didn't sound quite right I thought. So I decided to try a Ned Clayton Cinemag 1254 as it has 4 different settings. The turn ratio of 1:40 with a primary load of 30 ohm seems promising so I am trying that first. Perhaps more gain than I need but my Shindo Monbrison's phono stage seems fairly robust. I will eventually try the 120 turn ratio with 118 Ohm load. The other available turn ratios of 1:13/265ohm and 1.10/470ohm seem less useful for this cartridge, who knows, but I will likely try them with my Hana.
Advice and comments are certainly welcome? Any other SPU Classic owners out there?
Using a Hana Umami my Icon Audio SUT (1:10, 100ohms) I thought everything sounded pretty good but I always wondered what a slightly higher turn ratio might offer.
Now that I am using a Ortofon SPU Classic GE Mk 2 which is a low sensitivity and internal impedance (0.2mv/2 ohm) the Icon didn't sound quite right I thought. So I decided to try a Ned Clayton Cinemag 1254 as it has 4 different settings. The turn ratio of 1:40 with a primary load of 30 ohm seems promising so I am trying that first. Perhaps more gain than I need but my Shindo Monbrison's phono stage seems fairly robust. I will eventually try the 120 turn ratio with 118 Ohm load. The other available turn ratios of 1:13/265ohm and 1.10/470ohm seem less useful for this cartridge, who knows, but I will likely try them with my Hana.
Advice and comments are certainly welcome? Any other SPU Classic owners out there?
I have an SPU Century and a Royal N, similar output levels of 0.2mV but the Century has an impedance of 2Ω whereas the Royal N’s is 7Ω, the same as the Versimo. On my active MC stage The Ceutury works best with 100Ω loading, the Royal N I initially used with 220Ω but I have a slight preference for 157Ω even though I’m paralleling 220 and 560Ω plugs to achieve it. This preference holds even when moving the Royal N between the Korf and Aro and I’m very surprised how well it works with the latter given its lightish weight.
Moving on to a SUT and the Century is improving on its performance into the MC stage when used with a 1:26 SUT and a relatively simple MM stage, taking power from the pre amp. The SUT is a silver wound Sculpture A, on loan from Ana Mighty Sounds. I’ve not tried a SUT with the Royal N yet but suspect 1:20 will be a better match.
Moving on to a SUT and the Century is improving on its performance into the MC stage when used with a 1:26 SUT and a relatively simple MM stage, taking power from the pre amp. The SUT is a silver wound Sculpture A, on loan from Ana Mighty Sounds. I’ve not tried a SUT with the Royal N yet but suspect 1:20 will be a better match.
Despite the effect on impedance loading? I'm aware that it is now suggested that doesn't do what we used to think it did, but no one with half an ear can say it makes no difference.
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The higher the quality of your MC-SUT, the more likely it will accommodate a wide range of cartridge internal impedances without issues. In contrast, lower-quality SUTs tend to have limited compatibility. The overall sound quality is influenced more by the SUT’s quality than by impedance loading. Issues like frequency roll-off and high-frequency rise in MC cartridges are typically less problematic or less noticeable with a high-quality SUT. With low quality SUT you're actually complaining about SUT's sound rather than early roll-off. As you’re aware, loading a cartridge via a SUT differs from using an active gain phono stage.
IMHO/IME, it’s possible to use cartridges with internal impedances up to about one-third of the reflected load when using a high-quality SUT. For example, a SUT with a 1-ohm tap, a 1:63 turns ratio, and a 12-ohm reflected load can accept cartridges with internal impedances up to approximately 4-ohms.
What about using a transimpedance (current mode) phono stage? Something like the D Channel Lino or Seta. The Lino can be configured with multiple inputs including a more traditional voltage mode MC input for a second cart (up to 3 optional). It seem like for about the same money as a high quality SUT you could have a little more flexibility with an active device.
I haven't come across a current mode phono stage or any active phono stage to be exact that can sound more realistic, complete, lifelike than a SUT+tube MM phono combo, but that's just my opinion. I haven't heard Channel D but I don't think it's better than a four piece CH P1-X1.
The CH P1 would be another option similar to the Lino in terms of functionality. I could replace my Ref 3SE with the CH and handle all 3 cartridges/tonearms with one box (or 2 with the X1). I’ve not used a SS phono stage for many years but the P1 seems to have a pretty good reputation.
Quality no doubt plays a role in proving the best sound. However I am not quite ready to throw out all of the other guidelines. You lost me with the last paragraph too. Care to give a real life example?
Also how do identify these quality SUT and what characteristics would they have that would raise them up above the pack?
Instead of one I'll give you two examples; Phasemation and Kondo SUTs
Is the CH an example of what you mentioned in a previous thread?
I agree that a SUT through a tube MM phono sage is desirable. I thought the CH P 1 was solid state so you kind of lost me but perhaps you were just comparing it to Channel D?
Having heard the CH Precision gear at the Munich show a few times I have great respect for the effort they put into design and the sound. Perhaps I have even hear the CH P1- X1 when they demoed. It would no doubt be a quality product but is it a SUT? Full disclosure although I would like to learn more about why or even if you think this is the answer I don't see myself running out and buying a very expensive phono stage like this anytime soon. Perhaps you have some other suggestions?
These are good examples. What design characteristic do they have that takes them to the next level?
Phasemation had a very small room in Munich. There was however something very right happening with their analogue/vinyl setup. It sounded great with the Wolf Von Langa Son!
No, CH doesn't have a SUT inside. I mentioned in order to answer @Delkat question. CH P1 is a solid state phono based on current amplification (also has voltage amplification option) and is not related with any SUT or tube MM phono. As a response to @Delkat question, I meant I haven't listened Channel D (perhaps I did listen but I don't remember) but I don't think it's better than CH P1 and CH P1 is not better than best SUT+tube MM phono IMHO.
I don't know, cause it's hard to describe quality, especially quality that translates into good sound but they usually can go very low on cartridge impedance.
