Synergistic Research HFT

[RichDavis]

It's amazing that one would slam products simply because there are no published measurements. I would venture a guess that installation location, etc. has a large effect on the final result, whether the product is RAL-certified or not. From personal experience, I know I got different results when I placed my half-dozen ASC tube traps in different spots in my room, but they have measurements on their site. So, there are more requirements to be met than merely having measurements that show the effect of the devices under a single (or limited #) of circumstances.

Lee

Well, when tuning a room, typically AE. measure the room, then they figure out what product will improve that measurements. There is certain amount of subjectivity involved, but there is also some objectivity done as well. There are new products coming out all of the time, it just takes a while for people to know what works best in their room to solve their problems. But if you are just placing room treatment around a room and not taking measurements, it will take longer to get things right, unless you luck out the first time.

Most acoustic treatment I've seen does well for mid and high frequencies, but the low frequencies are the hardest. Plus, there are different points of view of what works best. Some think tube traps work, some like diffusors, foam (different brands available), etc. etc. There are also different room sizes and purposes for the room. Then there is different systems that will produce another set of circumstances where additional treatment may be needed. But in the end, Certified Acoustic Engineers use measurements and they will be more likely going to use a product that has been tested so they can look at the efficiency of the product.

either way, SR would be best to have their products tested by RAL, but they aren't known for making room treatment products, so they really aren't approaching this the same way that ASC, Acoustic Fields, Sonex, RPG, etc. would approach it. Unfortunately. it would resolve a lot of these discussions if they did.

 

[RichDavis]

Troll troll troll the boat gently down the stream. Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, your trolling makes me want to scream.

That's a nice song for children. Maybe you get all of your buddies to join in with a sing along, while others will just simply shake their heads and not waste their money on unproven technology.

 

[Steve Williams]

Take a big breath guys. Let's not make these things personal.

 

[RichDavis]

Take a big breath guys. Let's not make these things personal.

Steve, you had Bonnie, who is an Acoustic Engineer that helped you with your room. What does she say about this product? Did she recommend it for your room?

 

[mep]

The point is that no one has to "waste their money" for the product you keep disparaging. You get to try it for 30 days and if you don't like it, you send it back and get your money back. I don't know how much more fair the offer could possibly be. Trying it in your own system for 30 days and then reporting back with your findings would be much better than constantly berating the company for not providing measurements. This beaten horse is not only dead, it's down to tooth, hair, and bone.

 

[RichDavis]

The point is that no one has to "waste their money" for the product you keep disparaging. You get to try it for 30 days and if you don't like it, you send it back and get your money back. I don't know how much more fair the offer could possibly be. Trying it in your own system for 30 days and then reporting back with your findings would be much better than constantly berating the company for not providing measurements. This beaten horse is not only dead, it's down to tooth, hair, and bone.

Why don't you go to a company like Acoustic Fields and spend the same amount of money on something that's been proven, tested, and used by a wide range of professional studios, etc. and use their products instead? They have a money back guarantee as well. I would bet on their products before these silly devices in a second. In addition, I can talk to an acoustic engineer that will try to assist in figuring out what's more likely going to work and not work first.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Why don't you go to a company like Acoustic Fields and spend the same amount of money on something that's been proven, tested, and used by a wide range of professional studios, etc. and use their products instead? They have a money back guarantee as well. I would bet on their products before these silly devices in a second. In addition, I can talk to an acoustic engineer that will try to assist in figuring out what's more likely going to work and not work first.

A you didn't answer Mark's question.

B, just for sxxt and giggles, what exactly does AF charge for their services?

C, it's their money to do with as they feel fit. You may not agree one bit but that doesn't give you the right either to berate them either.

 

[RBFC]

How many folks who throw $1000 or so into acoustic products will spend many times that for a pro consult?

Lee

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

The field of acoustics follows the laws of Physics. That having been said:
What is the principle upon which those very nice objects are based? Anyone who has tried to tackle bass with acoustics treatments will know that size matters in bass to affect it in any meaningful way do these products have the appropriate girth and absorption for bass treatments... ??
Last but not least why shouldn't one be skeptical of such claims? After all improvements in room acoustics can be measured, there are even free powerful tools... Do these things measure up? Do those who defend them think they measure up? Why should a person who avows skepticism for this product, be labeled a troll?

 

[RBFC]

Frantz,

Well said. It is not the questioning of any product that causes concern, it is the pointless repetition of one's position to members who neither own the product nor have heard them. It is also of concern that the member in question makes such declamatory statements when it seems he has no personal experience with them either. Healthy skepticism is welcome in my opinion, but inflammatory and degrading statements which accompany the questions are not welcome. I did not ban this member simply because WBF welcomes diversity of opinion, as long as the discussions are politely conducted (a constant problem).

Lee

 

[RichDavis]

A you didn't answer Mark's question.

B, just for sxxt and giggles, what exactly does AF charge for their services?

C, it's their money to do with as they feel fit. You may not agree one bit but that doesn't give you the right either to berate them either.

I think it depends on what you want to have done. They have some services that are free and some they charge for. I've been reading their website and some of their products come with an hour of free consultation. They also have a turn key listening room which can cost in the area of $75K+ and they custom build the products, come out and install it, etc. etc. etc. and then they come out at two three month intervals to fine tune the room. You can certainly go to their website and read about their products, etc. They have some VERY interesting designs for low frequency treatment. I've just been reviewing the RAL curves of their products and am comparing against others to see what their effectiveness is. I've used Sonex, Auralex, and ASC products in the past and am always looking for products that might be more effective.

Quadradic diffusors are used in so many studios, concert halls, etc. and they are proven. I have a local audio store that has quadratic diffusors in their sound room, but I didn't ask who them bought them from since their room was built by a local professional and it was built years ago, but they sell their kits for about $330, which is pretty reasonable, but they have their diaphragmatic systems which I haven't seen anything else that has similar specs. They have a free on-line set of videos and a downloadable e-book which is VERY informative. Here's the link. http://www.acousticfields.com/blog/ It's free. They also have a wealth of information on room acoustics, etc. and so far I haven't bought any of their products, but I'm finding that their products do seem to have better RAL measurements for dealing with low frequencies, which is the hardest to deal with.

But I plan on buying some of their products for my next room, but right now I'm in research mode and gathering as much information as I can before I start dumping money into a room.

The only reason why I berated them is because they started that first. I just merely pointed out in the beginning that when a company makes a LOT of lofty claims about room treatment, my experience in dealing with various mfg and talking to acoustic engineers is I have to see measurements first. I am not going to dump a dime into a product that hasn't been tested and measured when it comes to room treatment. I've spent a lot of money on products over the years where some worked and some didn't and I'm just getting more and more frustrated with the industry making claims and no measurements to back up those claims. and all I'm doing it trying to suggest a little logic in this area.

You might want to discuss THEIR berating and buying into a room treatment product that has no RAL test measurements to back up their claims. I didn't throw the stone first. I don't know what your PhD is in, and I'm shocked that someone with one isn't demanding RAL test measurements on acoustic treatment. That's what is shocking to me. So please look in the mirror. I can stand up for my own principals and this is one of those areas that I refuse to back down on.

I grew up around engineers of various discipline, people that developed technology YOU use on a daily basis, I have been taught to look at test results. I have gone through several years of training in electronics and I have been taught to look at measurements. I know that when it comes to listening there is subjectivity, but there are also measurements. In this industry, we need both.

 

[RichDavis]

How many folks who throw $1000 or so into acoustic products will spend many times that for a pro consult?

Lee

I spent $1500 to have an acoustic engineer come to my house to measure my room as he was also using data to develop an AES white paper on small room acoustics and my room was one of the samples in the AES whitepaper. This was done many, many years ago. It was $1500 well spent, but I can also get free consultation as well from various companies that make products. You can go on various website like Auralex, type in your room measurements and they'll spit out products they sell that will help your room. ASC will do free consultation as will others, but that's the cheap and dirty method. But to REALLY get your room done to the point where it's as close to perfect, it costs money. LOTS of it for both consolation and the treatment, it's all what your budget allows. but if you are spending $100K or more on equipment, then money isn't an issue and I would spend that much on the room, you'll get your monies worth out of your equipment and you may find not having to buy bigger speakers to get more bottom end. A lot of that can be accomplished with just better treatment that can deal with low frequencies. For some reason, we don't take room acoustics as serious as we do equipment, but the reality is a better sounding room will make your system sound better, regardless of how much you spent on your equipment. Some would suggest 50% on the room and 50% on the equipment, so if you have $100K, spend $50K on your room and $50K on your equipment and it will probably out perform a $100K system in an untreated room. But most people don't see it that way because they might not have every been in a properly treated room.

 

[RBFC]

1. I don't believe you've taken a close enough look at the audience to whom you're pontificating.

2. Many audiophiles are not permitted to make massive structural or aesthetic adjustments to a room due to family circumstances. This does not excuse poor acoustics, but explains why many folks opt to try less obtrusive designs and products. "Honey, I need to place eight 6 foot columns, 15 inches in diameter in our living room...." The resultant divorce attorney can easily afford the acoustical engineer....

In theory, we agree that well-measured products can be efficiently placed in room positions that support their design parameters. However, the net effect of your posts is similar to why folks don't invite that one person (who is always whining) over for dinner as often. Your point is made, we don't disagree as much as you want to believe. The comebacks have been more directed at your style of presentation and repetition.

Lee

 

[thedudeabides]

Ever hear of RAL? That's short for Riverbank Acoustical Laboratories.

This is where they test acoustic room treatment products, etc.

They are the people that these mfg of "ROOM TREATMENT" products send their products so they can get it independently tested.

They create response curves, etc. on a product so that when an acoustic engineer needs some form of treatment, they can look at the RAL specs to see what might work best. So, if some company wants to market a "ROOM TREATMENT" product to treat a room, they'll go to RAL to get it tested and validated.

SR didn't do this. I'm sure if there are tests that can validate the product, RAL should be able to perform independent tests to prove that it works or doesn't work.

Now, stop acting like fools about this. Large room acoustics can take YEARS to get right, and it costs MONEY. Lots of it. So, whomever operates these concert halls are, they have to want to spend money to improve the sound quality, and sometimes, they don't have it. The acoustic engineers can only work with what products they KNOW about that might solve those issues, same goes with small room acoustics. They have budgets, and those budgets don't always include doing what needs to be done to get perfect room acoustics. When building a new room that's never been done before, they can only model it as best as they can, and then it's an ongoing fine tuning. Plus, room acoustics is measurable, but still has a certain degree of subjectivity involved.

SR should have RAL test the products and come back with a report to back up their claims. They have a LOT of claims in their ads and website and they are just too good to be true. If they had nothing to worry about, then why don't they show measurements?

http://www.alionscience.com/en/abou...s/acoustics/riverbank-acoustical-laboratories

Dear Mr. Davis.

I post an innocent observation about Davies Hall and my personal experience at a trade show regarding an SR product and I get this in return? Reference Post No. 94 for further information.

Frankly, I think you have lost touch with reality (internet etiquette) and have a very serious "anger management" issue.

I suspect the mods will delete this but I really hope they don't so you understand how whacky and insulting your comments are.

You need some serious help. Please get it.

GG

 

[jap]

Hi

The field of acoustics follows the laws of Physics. That having been said:
What is the principle upon which those very nice objects are based? Anyone who has tried to tackle bass with acoustics treatments will know that size matters in bass to affect it in any meaningful way do these products have the appropriate girth and absorption for bass treatments... ??
Last but not least why shouldn't one be skeptical of such claims? After all improvements in room acoustics can be measured, there are even free powerful tools... Do these things measure up? Do those who defend them think they measure up? Why should a person who avows skepticism for this product, be labeled a troll?

I've ordered some HFTs to try out and I've used TacT RCS units since 2004 and have a calibrated LinearX Mic, but please tell me how do I measure soundstage air and dimensionality or leading edge attack of low frequencies and mid-range clarity?

 

[RichDavis]

I've ordered some HFTs to try out and I've used TacT RCS units since 2004 and have a calibrated LinearX Mic, but please tell me how do I measure soundstage air and dimensionality or leading edge attack of low frequencies and mid-range clarity?

PS, Are you still using that BenchMark DAC which converts the original sample rate of the incoming data to a datastream sampled at 110kHz.

Are you an acoustic engineer? Here's what i've read about room correction, since companies like Meridian, Steinway/Lyngdorf, etc. are getting involved with that. I remember reading an article about room correction and that it doesn't do well with frequencies below around 200Hz. I'll see if I can dig up that article, but that's what I read. Now, you are talking about things that I can't comment on. I've never heard the term "soundstage air". I've heard of soundstage, and that can be accomplished a variety of ways. I've also never heard of "leading edge attack of low frequencies". Now, here's what I recommend. Contact a variety of reputable companies that make acoustic treatment that's used in professional listening environments. Talk to the mfg that make these products. Some of them will talk to you on the telephone or via email and answer your questions, but in the process they will probably ask you a bunch of questions to give them an idea of what you have and are trying to accomplish. They'll ask you questions about room dimensions, which is easy to answer. If you have various photos of the room to show what treatment, if any, couches, curtains, glass, etc. which helps them understand your environment. If you have parallel walls, that produces problems that can be easily rectified. Trying to fix room problems with electronic products USUALLY doesn't always work well, especially with low frequencies. It's just the nature of physics. Again, go to Acoustic Fields blog site and sign up to get a 482 page e-book for free. I just downloaded it a few hours ago and I'm doing a speed reading of it, and so far, it's very easy to read and kind of humorous. Getting a room tuned properly will give you better bass definition, better clarity, better soundstage, etc. That's the end result, but there's no magic box that does everything. I've heard some samples of DESQ's speaker correction box, but I'm not convinced it does much in the low frequencies. I have to play around with it. But again, talk to acoustic engineers that have vast more experience and give them information on your room. I've talked to several mfg in the past before I bought a product and they will usually ask for dimensions, photos of the room to get some "Free" advice and that will usually help you get some of the more obvious problems out of the way. But low frequencies? NO way around it using proper treatment and that's the most difficult problem to deal with. Room diffusors can certainly help quite a bit. They kind of make your room disappear if you will. My suggestion is get on the phone and call a few of these companies up or email them. They will certainly talk to you to at least figure out the least costly (if that's important) way to at least resolve the biggest issues on a limited budget. One thing I admire about guys like Acoustic Fields is that for those DIYer's that have the equipment and ability to build their own treatment, they sell the plans for less than $60 to actually build your own versions of their products, so that's even cheaper way of doing it. I only found out about Acoustic Fields about a week ago and I've watched every video, read about 50% of everything on their site and now I'm reading their free e-book (482 pages), but the bottom line is, get someone that has vast experience in room acoustics to at least get an understanding of your current room and the potential problems. Some of these guys will actually plug in your room dimensions and can spit out certain OBVIOUS problems you have to deal with first and once you get into putting the right treatment in, all of the things you want will eventually happen as a result.

If you want someone to tell you how to measure certain things, ask an Acoustic Engineer or the mfg that made the equipment you have or are thinking about buying. It's not only how to measure things, but how to analyze and interpret the measurements. The things you are wanting are a result of a properly treated room is what will ultimately happen, but those HFTs show absolutely no ability to do anything. How can they? that's my first question and should be yours.

One thing i was pretty amazed by was the Acoustic Fields Diaphramatic absorber, they explain how it works and they show how effective it is for low frequencies. That's the BIGGEST issue. I'm sure for soundstage, maybe some diffusors, maybe some foam in certain places, which is usually pretty inexpensive. Mid range clarity is easy with foam, diffusors. Again, I don't know your room, so contact a few different companies give them dimensions of your room, talk about the size speakers you have, if you have glass walls, curtains, etc. etc. which will help them. Obviously, without a professional coming into your house to perform measurements, they can only advise so much as to how to resolve your room problems.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Are you an acoustic engineer? Here's what i've read about room correction, since companies like Meridian, Steinway/Lyngdorf, etc. are getting involved with that. I remember reading an article about room correction and that it doesn't do well with frequencies below around 200Hz. I'll see if I can dig up that article, but that's what I read. Now, you are talking about things that I can't comment on. I've never heard the term "soundstage air". I've heard of soundstage, and that can be accomplished a variety of ways. I've also never heard of "leading edge attack of low frequencies". Now, here's what I recommend. Contact a variety of reputable companies that make acoustic treatment that's used in professional listening environments. Talk to the mfg that make these products. Some of them will talk to you on the telephone or via email and answer your questions, but in the process they will probably ask you a bunch of questions to give them an idea of what you have and are trying to accomplish. They'll ask you questions about room dimensions, which is easy to answer. If you have various photos of the room to show what treatment, if any, couches, curtains, glass, etc. which helps them understand your environment. If you have parallel walls, that produces problems that can be easily rectified. Trying to fix room problems with electronic products USUALLY doesn't always work well, especially with low frequencies. It's just the nature of physics. Again, go to Acoustic Fields blog site and sign up to get a 482 page e-book for free. I just downloaded it a few hours ago and I'm doing a speed reading of it, and so far, it's very easy to read and kind of humorous. Getting a room tuned properly will give you better bass definition, better clarity, better soundstage, etc. That's the end result, but there's no magic box that does everything. I've heard some samples of DESQ's speaker correction box, but I'm not convinced it does much in the low frequencies. I have to play around with it. But again, talk to acoustic engineers that have vast more experience and give them information on your room. I've talked to several mfg in the past before I bought a product and they will usually ask for dimensions, photos of the room to get some "Free" advice and that will usually help you get some of the more obvious problems out of the way. But low frequencies? NO way around it using proper treatment and that's the most difficult problem to deal with. Room diffusors can certainly help quite a bit. They kind of make your room disappear if you will. My suggestion is get on the phone and call a few of these companies up or email them. They will certainly talk to you to at least figure out the least costly (if that's important) way to at least resolve the biggest issues on a limited budget. One thing I admire about guys like Acoustic Fields is that for those DIYer's that have the equipment and ability to build their own treatment, they sell the plans for less than $60 to actually build your own versions of their products, so that's even cheaper way of doing it. I only found out about Acoustic Fields about a week ago and I've watched every video, read about 50% of everything on their site and now I'm reading their free e-book (482 pages), but the bottom line is, get someone that has vast experience in room acoustics to at least get an understanding of your current room and the potential problems. Some of these guys will actually plug in your room dimensions and can spit out certain OBVIOUS problems you have to deal with first and once you get into putting the right treatment in, all of the things you want will eventually happen as a result.

If you want someone to tell you how to measure certain things, ask an Acoustic Engineer or the mfg that made the equipment you have or are thinking about buying. It's not only how to measure things, but how to analyze and interpret the measurements. The things you are wanting are a result of a properly treated room is what will ultimately happen, but those HFTs show absolutely no ability to do anything. How can they? that's my first question and should be yours.

One thing i was pretty amazed by was the Acoustic Fields Diaphramatic absorber, they explain how it works and they show how effective it is for low frequencies. That's the BIGGEST issue. I'm sure for soundstage, maybe some diffusors, maybe some foam in certain places, which is usually pretty inexpensive. Mid range clarity is easy with foam, diffusors. Again, I don't know your room, so contact a few different companies give them dimensions of your room, talk about the size speakers you have, if you have glass walls, curtains, etc. etc. which will help them. Obviously, without a professional coming into your house to perform measurements, they can only advise so much as to how to resolve your room problems.

I think that everyone here pretty much understands the terms JAP is using. They're pretty self explanatory and nothing esoteric.

And I think you would be better off not treating everyone here like they're idiots. Most of them have been involved in the industry and are aware of more than you think.

 

[MylesBAstor]

I think it depends on what you want to have done. They have some services that are free and some they charge for. I've been reading their website and some of their products come with an hour of free consultation. They also have a turn key listening room which can cost in the area of $75K+ and they custom build the products, come out and install it, etc. etc. etc. and then they come out at two three month intervals to fine tune the room. You can certainly go to their website and read about their products, etc. They have some VERY interesting designs for low frequency treatment. I've just been reviewing the RAL curves of their products and am comparing against others to see what their effectiveness is. I've used Sonex, Auralex, and ASC products in the past and am always looking for products that might be more effective.

Quadradic diffusors are used in so many studios, concert halls, etc. and they are proven. I have a local audio store that has quadratic diffusors in their sound room, but I didn't ask who them bought them from since their room was built by a local professional and it was built years ago, but they sell their kits for about $330, which is pretty reasonable, but they have their diaphragmatic systems which I haven't seen anything else that has similar specs. They have a free on-line set of videos and a downloadable e-book which is VERY informative. Here's the link. http://www.acousticfields.com/blog/ It's free. They also have a wealth of information on room acoustics, etc. and so far I haven't bought any of their products, but I'm finding that their products do seem to have better RAL measurements for dealing with low frequencies, which is the hardest to deal with.

But I plan on buying some of their products for my next room, but right now I'm in research mode and gathering as much information as I can before I start dumping money into a room.

The only reason why I berated them is because they started that first. I just merely pointed out in the beginning that when a company makes a LOT of lofty claims about room treatment, my experience in dealing with various mfg and talking to acoustic engineers is I have to see measurements first. I am not going to dump a dime into a product that hasn't been tested and measured when it comes to room treatment. I've spent a lot of money on products over the years where some worked and some didn't and I'm just getting more and more frustrated with the industry making claims and no measurements to back up those claims. and all I'm doing it trying to suggest a little logic in this area.

You might want to discuss THEIR berating and buying into a room treatment product that has no RAL test measurements to back up their claims. I didn't throw the stone first. I don't know what your PhD is in, and I'm shocked that someone with one isn't demanding RAL test measurements on acoustic treatment. That's what is shocking to me. So please look in the mirror. I can stand up for my own principals and this is one of those areas that I refuse to back down on.

I grew up around engineers of various discipline, people that developed technology YOU use on a daily basis, I have been taught to look at test results. I have gone through several years of training in electronics and I have been taught to look at measurements. I know that when it comes to listening there is subjectivity, but there are also measurements. In this industry, we need both.

You've written a couple of thousand words and still haven't addressed point A in your ramblings.



And you admit you've berated people here. That's not going to make you too many friends here or if you treat people like this in the real world either. You know it isn't necessarily what you say but how you say it. You would have been a lot better off talking about room acoustics and other products in a separate thread rather than going on an all out attack on SR product. Exactly what did SR do to you? Do you think you have really accomplished anything other than turning everyone off to what you're saying? You aren't going to get anywhere bashing people over the head here or for that matter any website. Perhaps you're mistaking WBF for audioaasylum, the wild, wild west of the audio internet. This type of stuff might be more appropriate and tolerated over there.

 

[RichDavis]

You've written a couple of thousand words and still haven't addressed point A in your ramblings.



And you admit you've berated people here. That's not going to make you too many friends here or if you treat people like this in the real world either. You know it isn't necessarily what you say but how you say it. You would have been a lot better off talking about room acoustics and other products in a separate thread rather than going on an all out attack on SR product. Exactly what did SR do to you? Do you think you have really accomplished anything other than turning everyone off to what you're saying? You aren't going to get anywhere bashing people over the head here or for that matter any website. Perhaps you're mistaking WBF for audioaasylum, the wild, wild west of the audio internet. This type of stuff might be more appropriate and tolerated over there.

What's your PhD in? I only stood up for myself AFTER i was berated just to let them get a taste of their own silliness.

What point was I supposed to address? I told him he should contact mfg of products, give them room dimensions, photos of their rooms. they'll advise what products to use, then you can compare RAL measurement tests which they SHOULD be able to supply. If they supply proper treatment for his room, and if done properly, he'll be able to get better soundstage, better bass definition, etc. As far as how to measure those aspects? Call someone that supplies test measurement equipment, an acoustic engineer and maybe they can help define what tests they need to perform, etc.

Again, I'm not an acoustic engineer, so he should be consulting with one. Are you an acoustic engineer? My guess is that you aren't.

I'm just giving advice which is more than you are. You just seem to not address anything. So, again, what's your PhD in? It should be a simple answer. But for some reason, you are afraid to supply me with that information. why is that?

You can't cram everything about acoustic engineering and how to tune a room in 5 minutes. It take a LOT of reading, asking questions, talking to acoustic engineers, various mfg of treatment, comparing RAL measurements. it's not so simple. I wish it were, that's why there's lots of mfg of treatment, and lots of different approaches to the same problem. Getting a room to sound as good as it can for the listener, their equipment and their intended purpose. Putting aluminum cylinders the size of the tip of your pinky has no credible sources to validate that they do anything. If they were so great, why aren't professional studios using them and nothing else? What Acoustic Engineers recommend those as a means of room treatment that have successfully used them in professional installs? No one has yet to provide that information. No measurements proving they do anything.

What did SR do to me? Try to sell me a product that makes a LOT of claims with no tangible evidence that they work and then others that haven't provided me tangible evidence that they work and telling me to just buy them and listen to them, when conventional wisdom tells me otherwise. Why are you promoting the use of them? Trying to get them to advertise on your site? Get expensive free loaner equipment to test? I advise people to go to several different sources to see what they suggest, get measurements of their products, etc. and then buy what you think will do the best job for the budget you have.

I have only turned off those that aren't using common sense and logic with room treatment. For those I turned off, that's their problem, not mine. Again Myles, what is your PhD in? It would help me understand your background.

How come you don't insist on test measurements on this product or any other product for that matter to prove the product's specs or their effectiveness? That's my question to you and others for that matter. I know there are people on this site that do want test measurements. I'm not alone in this.

 

[MylesBAstor]

What's your PhD in? I only stood up for myself AFTER i was berated just to let them get a taste of their own silliness.

What point was I supposed to address? I told him he should contact mfg of products, give them room dimensions, photos of their rooms. they'll advise what products to use, then you can compare RAL measurement tests which they SHOULD be able to supply. If they supply proper treatment for his room, and if done properly, he'll be able to get better soundstage, better bass definition, etc. As far as how to measure those aspects? Call someone that supplies test measurement equipment, an acoustic engineer and maybe they can help define what tests they need to perform, etc.

Again, I'm not an acoustic engineer, so he should be consulting with one. Are you an acoustic engineer? My guess is that you aren't.

I'm just giving advice which is more than you are. You just seem to not address anything. So, again, what's your PhD in? It should be a simple answer. But for some reason, you are afraid to supply me with that information. why is that?

You can't cram everything about acoustic engineering and how to tune a room in 5 minutes. It take a LOT of reading, asking questions, talking to acoustic engineers, various mfg of treatment, comparing RAL measurements. it's not so simple. I wish it were, that's why there's lots of mfg of treatment, and lots of different approaches to the same problem. Getting a room to sound as good as it can for the listener, their equipment and their intended purpose. Putting aluminum cylinders the size of the tip of your pinky has no credible sources to validate that they do anything. If they were so great, why aren't professional studios using them and nothing else? What Acoustic Engineers recommend those as a means of room treatment that have successfully used them in professional installs? No one has yet to provide that information. No measurements proving they do anything.

What did SR do to me? Try to sell me a product that makes a LOT of claims with no tangible evidence that they work and then others that haven't provided me tangible evidence that they work and telling me to just buy them and listen to them, when conventional wisdom tells me otherwise. Why are you promoting the use of them? Trying to get them to advertise on your site? Get expensive free loaner equipment to test? I advise people to go to several different sources to see what they suggest, get measurements of their products, etc. and then buy what you think will do the best job for the budget you have.

I have only turned off those that aren't using common sense and logic with room treatment. For those I turned off, that's their problem, not mine. Again Myles, what is your PhD in? It would help me understand your background.

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How is that germane to the discussion?

How come you don't insist on test measurements on this product or any other product for that matter to prove the product's specs or their effectiveness? That's my question to you and others for that matter. I know there are people on this site that do want test measurements. I'm not alone in this

Maybe because manufacturers don't tell the truth? Go read my interview with Gordon Holt and the history of audio measurements.