EMI and RF Filters

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  1. You said:​

    Is it possible to mitigate RF polutions impacts on devices in the home by employing a device that broadcast a signal into the air to counter the waves
  2. ChatGPT said:​

    The idea of using a device to broadcast a signal that counters RF (radio frequency) pollution, also known as electromagnetic interference (EMI), is theoretically intriguing but practically challenging. Here’s why:
    1. Interference Cancellation Complexity:
      • To effectively cancel RF waves, the counter-signal would need to precisely match the frequency, phase, and amplitude of the incoming interference but be inverted. This principle, called destructive interference, is used in noise-canceling headphones but is much harder to apply to RF signals.
      • RF signals vary in frequency, source, and intensity, making real-time cancellation impractical without advanced and highly localized technology.
    2. Potential for More Interference:
      • Broadcasting additional RF signals could create more interference rather than reducing it, especially if not perfectly tuned to the original source of interference.
    3. Regulatory and Legal Issues:
      • RF spectrum use is regulated by government agencies (e.g., the FCC in the U.S.). Broadcasting counter-signals could violate regulations if they interfere with licensed communications, such as Wi-Fi, cellular networks, or emergency services.

    Practical Alternatives for Mitigating RF Pollution:​

    • Shielding: Use RF shielding materials (e.g., conductive paint, mesh, or Faraday cages) to block unwanted RF waves in specific areas.
    • Device Placement: Keep sensitive devices away from known sources of RF pollution (e.g., routers, microwaves).
    • Filters and Suppressors: Install ferrite beads or EMI filters on power lines and cables to reduce RF noise entering devices.
    • Grounding: Ensure proper grounding of electronic devices and circuits to reduce EMI.

    Experimental Devices:​

    Some devices claim to "neutralize" RF pollution by emitting signals, but most lack scientific validation and may be pseudoscientific. Research carefully before purchasing.



  3. You said:​

    The The problem is EMI commonly attaches to the enclosures. Of equipment and shielding is impractical. There are companies such as schnerzinger, that say they have devices that mitigate e m I and r.F
  4. ChatGPT said:​

    You're correct that electromagnetic interference (EMI) often couples to the enclosures of electronic equipment, especially through conductive surfaces and poorly shielded cables. Shielding entire systems can indeed be impractical in many situations, which is why alternative solutions are being marketed by companies like Schnerzinger.

    Claims from Companies Like Schnerzinger​

    Companies offering EMI and RF mitigation devices often claim that their products:
    1. Reduce EMI "noise": By introducing specific waveforms or fields that purportedly "neutralize" or reduce the impact of EMI on nearby electronics.
    2. Enhance audio or visual equipment performance: Especially for high-end systems, where subtle noise reduction might improve sound or image clarity.
    3. Do not interfere with intended signals: Such devices are designed not to disrupt Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, or other communications.

    The Science Behind These Devices​

    While these claims sound promising, they often lack independent verification. Here are some considerations:
    1. Noise Absorption vs. Cancellation:
      • Some devices use materials or circuits to absorb EMI, reducing its coupling to equipment.
      • Others claim to "cancel" interference by generating opposing signals, but this is more challenging to achieve in real-world environments with complex, unpredictable EMI patterns.
    2. Ground Plane Noise Mitigation:
      • If the device focuses on stabilizing or conditioning the grounding system of connected equipment, it could help reduce EMI by preventing its accumulation on enclosures.
    3. Specialized Filters:
      • High-frequency filters or resonance tuning might reduce the coupling of specific RF noise onto devices.

    Skepticism and Independent Testing​

    • Many of these devices are based on proprietary technologies with limited transparency about their operation.
    • Independent, peer-reviewed tests are often lacking, making it difficult to validate claims.
    • Audiophiles and tech enthusiasts sometimes report subjective improvements, but placebo effects are also possible.

    Practical Steps to Address EMI on Enclosures​

    If you're exploring options beyond such devices, consider:
    1. Ferrite Beads: Attach to cables entering/exiting the enclosure to suppress high-frequency EMI.
    2. Chassis Bonding: Improve the grounding of enclosures to reduce accumulated interference.
    3. Localized Shielding: Apply RF-absorbing materials to problem areas rather than entire devices.
    4. Active EMI Mitigation: Some advanced systems use active noise cancellation tailored to specific environments, but these are rare and often expensive.

    Final Thoughts​

    Devices like those from Schnerzinger might offer some benefit, especially for specific niche applications, but their effectiveness likely depends on the environment and specific EMI sources. It’s wise to evaluate them critically and seek testimonials or evidence of efficacy in scenarios similar to yours.



  5. You said:​

    Is it possible a device could be absorbing Rf, if it is a small device sitting on the floor with a short antenna, sticking out the top
  6. ChatGPT said:​

    Yes, it is possible for a small device with a short antenna to absorb RF energy, but the effectiveness and mechanism depend on its design and purpose. Here's a breakdown:

    How an RF Absorbing Device Might Work​

    1. Passive Absorption:
      • The device could be made of materials that absorb RF energy and convert it into heat, similar to how RF-absorbing foams or panels work. This principle is used in anechoic chambers to dampen RF reflections.
    2. Resonance Tuning:
      • The short antenna could be tuned to specific frequencies. If the antenna resonates at those frequencies, it can draw RF energy from the surrounding environment. This energy might be dissipated internally within the device.
    3. Grounding or Dissipation:
      • The device could provide a low-impedance path to ground, diverting RF energy from other nearby equipment and reducing interference.
    4. Active Noise Mitigation:
      • The device might include active components that detect RF noise and dissipate or recondition it, though this would require power and internal circuitry.
    5. Magnetic or Electric Field Absorption:
      • If it’s designed for near-field EMI (as opposed to far-field RF), it might absorb or neutralize magnetic or electric fields, common in close proximity to equipment.

    Limitations and Challenges​

    1. Antenna Size and Frequency:
      • A short antenna is typically effective only at higher frequencies because its length determines the range of frequencies it can interact with.
      • If the device claims to handle a broad spectrum, its design likely involves additional components, like broadband absorbing materials or electronic circuits.
    2. Coverage Area:
      • A single, small device can only absorb RF energy in its immediate vicinity. It would struggle to mitigate widespread interference in a large space.
    3. Energy Conversion:
      • The absorbed energy needs to be dissipated safely (usually as heat). In a small device, the capacity to handle significant RF energy might be limited.
    4. Practical Effectiveness:
      • For the device to noticeably improve RF conditions, it must absorb enough energy to reduce interference levels for nearby equipment. This depends on the intensity of the RF pollution and the device's efficiency.

    Testing the Effectiveness​

    To determine if such a device is truly mitigating RF interference:
    • Use an RF Spectrum Analyzer: Measure ambient RF levels before and after placing the device to detect reductions in signal strength.
    • Monitor Device Performance: Check whether the device improves the operation of sensitive equipment in the same environment.
    • Independent Reviews: Look for verified tests or third-party evaluations of the device's claims.

    Feasibility​

    While it's possible for a small, passive or active device to absorb RF energy, its impact is likely limited to a narrow frequency range or localized area. If a company claims broad-spectrum RF absorption with a small, simple device, approach those claims critically and seek technical validation.








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I have a funny Ted Denney story-

I used to live in the Denver area and did business with Listen Up on Pearl St. I worked with Dave Jackson and Chuck Zelig. I remember being in the store one time, circa mid ‘90s, and saw a very energetic young man carrying a couple of big long black flexible tube shaped objects about 5 feet long looking to talk with Dave, who was the manager at the time. He walked past and I thought nothing of it. The next day Chuck calls me and says I have to come down and hear this new power cord and I ask “What do you mean new power cord?” He proceeds to tell me about this fancy power cord they just got in that you plug into amps, preamps, etc. and it does great things to the sound produced by those components.

He did warn me that it was pretty expensive. I asked him how much and he said around $200 and almost started laughing at him. Needless to say I did go down and demoed one of these newfangled power cords. I ended up purchasing a couple.

That was the original super premium aftermarket power cord- the Synergistic Research AC Master Coupler. That was the first Synergistic Research product.
 
Does this sound like a antenna attached to a ground box
 
I should have asked Chat how to make my own. I honestly wonder if the DIY audio forums have people building and talking about this sort of stuff.
 
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Two things I have learned to disregard in this hobby are opinions on what is an acceptable price to performance, and the importance of being able to or the need to measure the sonic basis, of components.

Price to performance is subjective and individual but I won't let someone's opinion of value influence mine. I also put way more stock in general consensus of how components sound vs how they measure.

The price's mentioned are high for me but some day I might be tempted to try EMF RFI suppression. I try not to buy gear that is going thru a fad stage, I'll let the dust settle and see if they are still the hot item in a few years.

A few years ago I tried a CAD grounding box and while it was expensive I bought a second because its effect was so soothing and relaxed. I also have 3 Akiko Corelli AC boxes and they have a similar but not quite so profound effect.
FYI - been using these relatively inexpensive "Quantum Physics Noise Disruptors" (among other devices) for many years - above or under power conditioners and supplies, amplifier transformers, disc spinners, etc. Results for me have been as described in the reviews (links below). I have not experienced them being "too much of a good thing" in my systems:



 

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FYI - been using these relatively inexpensive "Quantum Physics Noise Disruptors" (among other devices) for many years - above or under power conditioners and supplies, amplifier transformers, disc spinners, etc. Results for me have been as described in the reviews (links below). I have not experienced them being "too much of a good thing" in my systems:



Do I see actual measurements to validate it works.
 
My ears validate that it works. Don't care about measurements.
I thought i saw in the review a graph of noise attenuation. I wasn't really sure how to read it.

In the world of RF attenuation, it would be nice to see numbers to go along with the words.

Torus, Puritan for sure show where they attenuate and how many DB down they are. I believe Shunyata, Audio Quest and others do too. Why not post it if you have it. The people making these things are engineer's. I was seeking out what the technology is. I saw a video I believe was explaining how a guy made something similar. He was using a scope to show the wave and how it was smoothed. I need to watch more. Find more. For curiosity sake. But the point being, the guys who desing this stuff don't just toss parts together. They are using known techniques to create the device. And I can only hope they actually have tools to measure as they go along. I highly doubt they cobble parts together and only listen to validate operational functionality.
 
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I thought i saw in the review a graph of noise attenuation. I wasn't really sure how to read it.

In the world of RF attenuation, it would be nice to see numbers to go along with the words.

Torus, Puritan for sure show where they attenuate and how many DB down they are. I believe Shunyata, Audio Quest and others do too. Why not post it if you have it. The people making these things are engineer's. I was seeking out what the technology is. I saw a video I believe was explaining how a guy made something similar. He was using a scope to show the wave and how it was smoothed. I need to watch more. Find more. For curiosity sake. But the point being, the guys who desing this stuff don't just toss parts together. They are using known techniques to create the device. And I can only hope they actually have tools to measure as they go along. I highly doubt they cobble parts together and only listen to validate operational functionality.measurements are critical

I thought i saw in the review a graph of noise attenuation. I wasn't really sure how to read it.

In the world of RF attenuation, it would be nice to see numbers to go along with the words.

Torus, Puritan for sure show where they attenuate and how many DB down they are. I believe Shunyata, Audio Quest and others do too. Why not post it if you have it. The people making these things are engineer's. I was seeking out what the technology is. I saw a video I believe was explaining how a guy made something similar. He was using a scope to show the wave and how it was smoothed. I need to watch more. Find more. For curiosity sake. But the point being, the guys who desing this stuff don't just toss parts together. They are using known techniques to create the device. And I can only hope they actually have tools to measure as they go along. I highly doubt they cobble parts together and only listen to validate operational functionality.
Measurements are important in the design of audio gear. I've known a couple of high end component designers and been present at several of their tests of products in development where both measurements and listening were involved. When it comes to auditioning and selecting gear for my own system I use and trust my ears exclusively.
 
I was getting some annoying hum again. I started futzing with cables. Small to no change. Then I put my hands on the transformer case and pressed. A lot of change. I started moving my hands around. No change. I pressed again and a big change. As I was pressing I was hearing a tink tink. After more fiddling I found the power tube globe was ever so lightly touching the side of the structure holding the preamp tubes. Turns out it was inducing transformer vibrations into the tube and creating a notoble hum. Couple tools moves later and that noise is gone.
 
I used my new $30 EF/MF/RF

Basically, modems and access points have very high RF. My phone also has about half the level of RF.

A standard Netgear switch or usb hub has very high EF.

My upgraded Cisco switch open also has high EF, but I lined the case with 0.50c of copper tape and it reduces the EF by 90%.

Both the linear power supply for the Cisco switch and the wall wart SMPS for the Netgear switch have very high EF and quite a lot of MF.

Most of these readings completely dissipate if you get 12" to 18" away.

I tested these in my office. I don't have any switches or access points anywhere near my hifi. The hifi itself is almost free of external EF/MF/RF.

Go it seems best to keep all these boxes far away from your hifi.

If you need a switch, garden variety copper slug tape does the job for $10 per roll (lifetime supply).

EF/EF/RF appears to be bad at very short range, which seems to validate the Innuos approach that the EF/MF/RF noise issue is likely more internal than external, so best to design using very low power processors and components.
 
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I was getting some annoying hum again. I started futzing with cables. Small to no change. Then I put my hands on the transformer case and pressed. A lot of change. I started moving my hands around. No change. I pressed again and a big change. As I was pressing I was hearing a tink tink. After more fiddling I found the power tube globe was ever so lightly touching the side of the structure holding the preamp tubes. Turns out it was inducing transformer vibrations into the tube and creating a notoble hum. Couple tools moves later and that noise is gone.
Honesty is rare policy in audio.
I have such Stories.
one I had a ps audio p10 on a shelf 4 feet above my Lampi dac.
it was inducing noise , if I held the tubes it was greatly reduced.
now there are formulas to assess EMI and magnetic force dramatically drops fast
So my thought it can’t be.
I made a faraday cage around the output tubes. also consider the tubes are low gain as well.
if I just slide the dac out from being directly under the power conditioning device it stopped.
My thinking is has to magnetic it’s inline emitting.
I ended up removing the power supply from top place aside 2 feet away.
even if I used a copper plate on the shelf is still was there.
cooper is a conductor of emi as is most ferrous metals.
the cage shields effects but not the emi itself.
next was my Lampi gg dac
It had an intermittent buz. Not line nose was too high in freq and varied like it was data sounds.
my router was 20 feet away not kidding
Fred and Yoda were very kind in helping me.
the dac. They sent it back to Poland to help me. I also had them add a volume control so atleast some money could be made.
short story dac comes back. still has a noise
Yoda is sure it can’t be his dac and he was correct.
I shut off one by one of each item at my house
when the router with WiFi went off the noise stopped.
I even turned off the WiFi feature still made noise.
ps the dac is inside a metal box made of copper sheets
 
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audio we hear , video see. both are affected by a varying amount of interference.
the types are plenty and most are created by the products themselves
 
Honesty is rare policy in audio.
I have such Stories.
one I had a ps audio p10 on a shelf 4 feet above my Lampi dac.
it was inducing noise , if I held the tubes it was greatly reduced.
now there are formulas to assess EMI and magnetic force dramatically drops fast
So my thought it can’t be.
I made a faraday cage around the output tubes. also consider the tubes are low gain as well.
if I just slide the dac out from being directly under the power conditioning device it stopped.
My thinking is has to magnetic it’s inline emitting.
I ended up removing the power supply from top place aside 2 feet away.
even if I used a copper plate on the shelf is still was there.
cooper is a conductor of emi as is most ferrous metals.
the cage shields effects but not the emi itself.
next was my Lampi gg dac
It had an intermittent buz. Not line nose was too high in freq and varied like it was data sounds.
my router was 20 feet away not kidding
Fred and Yoda were very kind in helping me.
the dac. They sent it back to Poland to help me. I also had them add a volume control so atleast some money could be made.
short story dac comes back. still has a noise
Yoda is sure it can’t be his dac and he was correct.
I shut off one by one of each item at my house
when the router with WiFi went off the noise stopped.
I even turned off the WiFi feature still made noise.
ps the dac is inside a metal box made of copper sheets
Interesting. I have a client with a Lampizator DAC that is creating a 60 hertz hum. I thought it was an issue with an internal grounding wire being too close to a power lead and the power lead inducing voltage onto the ground.
We had talked about it being RF induced. He didn't think that was it. Either way, it's a real issue he would like resolved. He has had 3 lampizator DAC and this is the second to have the same issue. He loves the way it plays. But he ripping his hair out looking for a fix.

As far as my amp, it's not RF. I did some further digging, and the power supply is not the same between the two monoblocks. I believe that is leading one of the amps signal in driver tubes to be highly microphonic. As such, the tubes are picking up case vibrations from the output transformer and injecting it into the tubes. I have been talking about this on my sick of failing amplifier thread.
 
Interesting. I have a client with a Lampizator DAC that is creating a 60 hertz hum. I thought it was an issue with an internal grounding wire being too close to a power lead and the power lead inducing voltage onto the ground.
We had talked about it being RF induced. He didn't think that was it. Either way, it's a real issue he would like resolved. He has had 3 lampizator DAC and this is the second to have the same issue. He loves the way it plays. But he ripping his hair out looking for a fix.

As far as my amp, it's not RF. I did some further digging, and the power supply is not the same between the two monoblocks. I believe that is leading one of the amps signal in driver tubes to be highly microphonic. As such, the tubes are picking up case vibrations from the output transformer and injecting it into the tubes. I have been talking about this on my sick of failing amplifier thread.
Lampizator don’t hum Or make noise on their own.
they do use tubes and do dc couple to block dc at outputs.
Ss dacs are inherently more silent but Lampi has a sound that yields more of a musical quality sound
. Even if it’s done as a pm Rex I would very much like to help.
you get me info on his set up and I’ll call you to talk.
you have to consider some audio devices walk a line to get the best sound
be it feed back or a host of different ideals.
 
Honesty is rare policy in audio.
I have such Stories.
one I had a ps audio p10 on a shelf 4 feet above my Lampi dac.
it was inducing noise , if I held the tubes it was greatly reduced.
now there are formulas to assess EMI and magnetic force dramatically drops fast
So my thought it can’t be.
I made a faraday cage around the output tubes. also consider the tubes are low gain as well.
if I just slide the dac out from being directly under the power conditioning device it stopped.
My thinking is has to magnetic it’s inline emitting.
I ended up removing the power supply from top place aside 2 feet away.
even if I used a copper plate on the shelf is still was there.
cooper is a conductor of emi as is most ferrous metals.
the cage shields effects but not the emi itself.
next was my Lampi gg dac
It had an intermittent buz. Not line nose was too high in freq and varied like it was data sounds.
my router was 20 feet away not kidding
Fred and Yoda were very kind in helping me.
the dac. They sent it back to Poland to help me. I also had them add a volume control so atleast some money could be made.
short story dac comes back. still has a noise
Yoda is sure it can’t be his dac and he was correct.
I shut off one by one of each item at my house
when the router with WiFi went off the noise stopped.
I even turned off the WiFi feature still made noise.
ps the dac is inside a metal box made of copper sheets
My little machine showed me that the modem and access points chuck out loads of RF, far more than anything other device I tested. This is a Ubiquiti access point on the wall in my office.

The EF reading is low - about the same as my Cisco switch after lining with copper tape.
IMG_4179.JPG
 
My little machine showed me that the modem and access points chuck out loads of RF, far more than anything other device I tested. This is a Ubiquiti access point on the wall in my office.

The EF reading is low - about the same as my Cisco switch after lining with copper tape.
View attachment 140971
Your mW of RF are moderate. not high. Yes they say over 70 is high. But I see over 1000 quite often. I would actually say you have fairly low RF compared to others.
 
Lampizator don’t hum Or make noise on their own.
they do use tubes and do dc couple to block dc at outputs.
Ss dacs are inherently more silent but Lampi has a sound that yields more of a musical quality sound
. Even if it’s done as a pm Rex I would very much like to help.
you get me info on his set up and I’ll call you to talk.
you have to consider some audio devices walk a line to get the best sound
be it feed back or a host of different ideals.
The client want to remain quiet. I think hes going to Lucas. I hope he gets the issue resolved.
 
Lucas will help but know I don’t know own any Lampi stuff now but have you owned them for many years.
many times tube stuff is more prown to noises but SS does as well.
what most don’t know but I’ll bet you do is this.
just because you don’t hear a hum does not mean your not loosing out in better sound
or loss of dynamics.
 

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