System Builders, How Does Your System get a SOUL?

[fas42]

Anyway, no internal tweaking. This is an off the shelf demo done blinded.

Anyway, these things never happen but boy, would it not be a fun, entertaining and educational day?

Maybe we need a third room in this 'demo'..... (oh frank, thanks. You-amps-I did not include as a seperate category..is 'amp alone' a different camp than 'front', 'everything', 'back'??) so the rooms are front end, back end and everything counts.

One aspect of the original suggestion was to allow people to tweak their systems for a day to get the best out of them. And one of the reasons that many low cost speakers sound "cheap" is that silly shortcuts have been taken inside to lower the costs: I have not seen the inside the inside of Klipsch units, but I'm sure that is the case. So part of the exercise is to get rid the totally unnecessary kneecapping that manufacturers do to their products to be able to get them on the shelves at a certain price.

A very large part of why expensive speakers seem to "win" is because a lot of the dumbness is taken out of the equation. Like having ridiculously flimsy push on connectors everywhere, and almost zero effort made to reduce carcase resonances ...

BTW, the amplification I thinking of would probably be Spectral ...

Frank

 

[fas42]

I'd call what Klipsch do the sound of bacon frying

Tim, that "frying bacon" is where the answers are: that's where the low level, high frequency distortion that I bang on about lurks, that does all the damage. The Klipsch do an an excellent of bringing that out in the bright light of day, as well as adding on an extra layer of it of their own making.

When I do my tweaking that exactly what I work on: first of all I make sure I have lots of "bacon frying", meaning that all the frequency spectrum is getting through; then I eliminate one by one all the little nasties which contribute to that unpleasant "frying", until I just have clean sound. No bacon, just perfectly cooked steak ...

Frank

 

[fas42]

OTOH, apropos to being 'criticised' about my approach, if done properly (speaker I mean) it parlays that monetary investment even more. I have no idea how much it would cost commercially to get 'my speakers', many many thousands of dollars.

Terry, your approach is a very good one, which is to minimise the stress on any area of the electronics. A fully active setup like yours should have excellent dynamics, which is a large part of the battle. Many audiophile setups struggle under the burden of having relatively inefficient, unpleasant impedance speakers with amps that have nowhere near the guts to drive them properly.

Also, the DVD player is just a transport, the well regarded DACs in the DEQX are doing the real work. So your sound should be of a very high order ...

Frank

 

[Gregadd]

Start with music you love. Then pick a system that gets out of the way.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

terryj said:

Anyway, no internal tweaking. This is an off the shelf demo done blinded.

I'd let him tweak all he wants, as long as he didn't dull the high frequency output of the amp...nah, I'd even let him do that, as it would be obvious. He could bring Gandalf's soldering iron and the ground horn of virgin unicorns to the game and it wouldn't save him. He would not tame the sizzle of a Klipsch without lopping off a substantial chunk of upper mids. Nature of the beast. If he sticks with this foolish brand choice, I'd give him another grand in speaker budget and he still wouldn't have a chance. Klipsch vs. Viennas? He may as well go grab a home theater in a box off the floor of Best Buy and claim he could tweak it beyond Wilsons. Oh yeah....

Tim

 

[fas42]

I'd let him tweak all he wants, as long as he didn't dull the high frequency output of the amp...nah, I'd even let him do that, as it would be obvious. He could bring Gandalf's soldering iron and the ground horn of virgin unicorns to the game and it wouldn't save him. He would not tame the sizzle of a Klipsch without lopping off a substantial chunk of upper mids. Nature of the beast. If he sticks with this foolish brand choice, I'd give him another grand in speaker budget and he still wouldn't have a chance. Klipsch vs. Viennas? He may as well go grab a home theater in a box off the floor of Best Buy and claim he could tweak it beyond Wilsons. Oh yeah....

Tim

Remember my other path: the Dynaudio type monitor, I'm thinking BM5P here. Capable of peak levels of 125dB, not too bad for a bit over $500 speaker ...

The pluses here are that it is excellent value for money, and the components are intrinsically of significantly higher quality. The minuses are that it relatively insensitive, much more then on the shoulders of the amp; and, that it is now obselete -- too good for its own good, perhaps!

Back to the Klipsch: it's all about the Tractrix horn, that's where the sizzle will come out, from problems further back in the chain. Now, I've heard the F2, using the same or equivalent treble unit, driven by a nothing AVR doing an excellent job. So any issues with sizzle is something out of whack in the setup, would be fixable. Driven correctly the unit should reach 120dB peaks cleanly, meaning full bore orchestral works easily achievable ...

BTW, what idiot would tweak a HTIAB? Must have rocks in his head ...

Frank

 

[terryj]

terryj said:



I'd let him tweak all he wants, as long as he didn't dull the high frequency output of the amp...nah, I'd even let him do that, as it would be obvious. He could bring Gandalf's soldering iron and the ground horn of virgin unicorns to the game and it wouldn't save him. He would not tame the sizzle of a Klipsch without lopping off a substantial chunk of upper mids. Nature of the beast. If he sticks with this foolish brand choice, I'd give him another grand in speaker budget and he still wouldn't have a chance. Klipsch vs. Viennas? He may as well go grab a home theater in a box off the floor of Best Buy and claim he could tweak it beyond Wilsons. Oh yeah....

Tim

Well maybe, but then we are sort of getting into a diy soundoff type territory. I was more simply 'one approach comapred with the opposite approach'.

Besides, who knows what frank would end up with...which would also mean we coudn't learn anything from the exercise.

At least keeping it commercial would mean we might be able to draw some conclusions.

Frank, yes, spose my approach has a benefit of now not needing some uber amp to do the entir fr simultaneously. And I can get my five amps for much less than a 'proper' audiophile amp that would have cred in places.

More money for the speaker ya see?!

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Cheers John. Rough percentages?

Is this a 'theoretical' approach? What I mean is, does it 'just make sense' to you or is it because you have tested that idea somehow.

Hi Terry!

I would say roughly this: 40% Source - 35% Speakers - 25% Amplification

Basically this makes sense to me, but I have a good reason I think. When I audition power/pre gear I have a more difficult time appreciating or identifying the sonic differences or character of the units. This is quite the opposite from when I audition a source and/or speakers. Don't ask me why, because I haven't a clue, but its there. As such, I am less concerned about the amplification I may or may not go with. I should add that I can hear the difference between a tube unit and an SS unit, but even that margin is being signifantly reduced IMO.

When I listen to a speaker I can tell you almost instantly if I like it or not. Ok, maybe a bit of an exageration, but not much. I like a sound that is slighly short of neutral and a tad warm.

With regards to source components I can really only speak of analogue, as I listen to digital via my PC. With an analogue rig you have so much choice for upgrading and bettering the overall output, plus the ability to interchange (cartridges/arms), it becomes (to me) by that definition the single most important piece of gear one can own. Yes, I am one of those "garbage in, garbage out" proponents. There's something else I need to add so you can appreciate where from I'm coming from. I'm a music fan first and foremost, so it's important that I get the best I can out of those recordings I own and continue to purchase. For my money that means focusing on the front end.

This approach has served me well through the years, and I don't anticipate a change in direction.

It has be noted that I am NOT listening to SOTA equipment, so maybe my opinion shouldn't even register. I'm kidding of course, because I very strongly believe that with some research, trial and error, one can assemble a very satisfying experience for relatively few dollars.

 

[caesar]

Start with music you love. Then pick a system that gets out of the way.

Amen!!!! Love it!!!!

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Amen!!!! Love it!!!!

I'll second that!

 

[Ptplayers]

My Roksan Xerxes 20 with tabriz ZI Tone arm

 

[Randall Smith]

Start with music you love. Then pick a system that gets out of the way.

Amen!!!! Love it!!!!

caesar is a walking contradiction. he wants his music altered. he chooses gear with "soul" that colors the music. so, in turn, the system is squarely in the way. he is basically assembling an audio system that remixes what has already been mastered.

 

[fas42]

Start with music you love. Then pick a system that gets out of the way.

That, unfortunately, is "unbelievably" hard. At least, at the moment. And I'm dead serious about that ...

Frank

 

[Gregadd]

That, unfortunately, is "unbelievably" hard. At least, at the moment. And I'm dead serious about that ...

Frank

Is the concept unbeleivably hard to accept or unbelieviably hard to pursue? Reading your post you seem to have achieved it on occiaison.n'est pas?

 

[fas42]

Is the concept unbeleivably hard to accept or unbelieviably hard to pursue? Reading your post you seem to have achieved it on occiaison.n'est pas?

Hard to pursue. I started 25 years or so ago, and the level of frustration can be immense, when you know what's possible, and it keeps slipping away from you, for one reason or another.

At the moment I would characterise "getting out of the way" as the speakers becoming completely acoustically invisible, as a clear objective. But I have experienced sufficiently varied replay on high quality gear to be quite certain that there will be levels of performance beyond that.

Having just returned from the lastest session with the friend's setup, a couple of hours ago, there are mixed feelings. He has high quality speakers, much, much better than mine. And at times this is so obvious, the "tonality" is clearly superior in certain areas, on certain musical passages. Yet, he still hasn't achieved "disappearing" speakers, in part because his digital gear is still too sensitive to power supply quality: as evening approached, and current draw picked up along the street the sound started to degrade badly.

Which is a shame, because the CD is well ahead of LP at the moment. But, the vinyl side is run through a battery powered phono stage, and is largely impervious to mains quality. It's swings and roundabouts, and so much energy and focus has to go into it, to achieve and maintain very distinctive improvements which contribute to no longer hearing the system, "misbehaving", which is what it's doing if you're aware of it.

Frank

 

[caesar]

caesar is a walking contradiction. he wants his music altered. he chooses gear with "soul" that colors the music. so, in turn, the system is squarely in the way. he is basically assembling an audio system that remixes what has already been mastered.

What's the point of having a rational discussion with you Randall, when all you have done is call me names the last few months. Very medieval. You have turned away from reason to the realm of emotions and I understand why. Your posts remind me of a quote from a satirical play: "Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned / Nor hell a fury like a woman scorned."

 

[Syntax]

Soul?

You mean S-O-U-L ???


Phhhuuuhhh, that is very difficult...15 years no sleep....but now we got it...

 

[MarinJim]

I had one of MSS Hi-Fi's hookers come over and "bless" my system. Now I, err I mean my system, has soul.

 

[prerich]

Here's something to chew on.... I've owned about 4 pairs of Klipsch Heresy speakers in my life time (2 pair's of 2's and 2 pairs of 1's). Of all the speakers I've had before - the Klipsch are the only ones to go and come back, and go again, and come back again. What drives this type of behavior - upgraditis - only to a point. I've had Infinity Kappa's, VMPS, Polk SDA SRS, other Klipsch, B&W, Snell (which I still have in storage), Def Tech, Wharfedale, and many others. No I've never been able to own stuff like Wilson, Big Vandersteens, Scaena, EggelstonWorks, and other elite brands, but I have had the opprotunity to listen to them and used them as my reference.

What I've discovered about the Heresy is that it has sounded different in my system depending on the equipment and room. What we have done is base a system based on the popularity or performance of the individual parts instead of looking at it as a system or a sum of it's total parts. Some things just don't sound right (yes this is subjective) in one system but makes magic in another. I didn't like the MBL system when I went to Axpona this year....you might be saying "this guy is a neophyte and a complete idiot!" Let me assure you I am neither, however - what made the MBL's sound bad was the music being played on them ... Electronica!!!! I know Yorkville pro systems that sound right with Electronic type music because they are made for that type of stuff - but the MBL's it sounded like it had too much fiber in it's bass diet - in in other words bloated!!!! The Whisper was a better all around performer - why - I think it happed to do with the sum of its parts - to include the program material (they did have their own demo CD and some of my favorite tracks were on it - so unfair advantage to Legacy ).

I got rid of my first 2 pairs of Heresy II speakers due to poor bass performance (and if you like gospel Hammond B3 you need some bass) and I even had subwoofers with these - but the blend was bad. I sold these quickly each time. A few years later I happened on another pair of Heresy 1's (had sold the II's) I was in confilct - these had the characteristic Horn Honk but did great in HT - my Snells did great in HT and in music so the Heresies where getting ready to go to the selling block ... but I changed my mind this time - I saved them.

Next I decided to use room treaments in my room. Set things up to combat early reflections - put up curtains on the wall...and other treatments....sucked the life out of my Snells and they never sounded the same - but low and behold - brought the Heresy speakers out and they sang - and I had new subs by then and the crossover/peq. Thee Heresy/Wharfedale 380 blend was just great and the Honk was gone! In comes another pair of H1's. Changed out the tweeters for Crites on three of them and the rest is history! I went to Axpona, listened, enjoyed, in some cases almost brought to tears, but then I came home - listened, enjoyed, and said "this ain't bad at all - it's on par with quite a few systems at the show!" and I never felt that the music lacked emotion or feeling - my music was "alive" again - like with the Snells - but more detailed and dynamic!!!!

Question: what did my Heresy based system have in its advantage over some of the Axpona systems and my own Snells....placement, tuning, and equiment that I know works well with each other. I'm almost afraid to touch it now for fear of ruining it (like I did before with the Snells). This groove is very good and I plan on enjoying it for quite a while.

Let's think system......just like your human body.

 

[prerich]

Start with music you love. Then pick a system that gets out of the way.

Wow......simple but sooo correct!!!!! +10000