System Builders, How Does Your System get a SOUL?

[andromedaaudio]

Saturn i agree on that , thats why there are so many different designs .
Some speakertechnologies will probably have less distortion in certain areas and if someone is sensitive for that, he will like that speaker for example , cone /box design, electrostat , omnidirectional(MBL and more ).
Creating a system is like decorating/ furnishing a house/appartment.
Just stuffing expenisive stuff in the room doesnt create a stylish/cozy place .
One needs experience /skill and sympathy for the job .
A well put together " cheap"system might be more intriguing than a careless put together expensive one .

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

IME the most faulty systems and thus the most important are the one that combine mechanics and electronics, or that transform an electrical impulse into a mechanical one.

Or that transform a mechanical impulse into an electrical one. Transducers. Yes. Everything matters but these matter most. A good place to choose your "color" in my estimation, as color is almost unavoidable.

So I courteosuly disagree with Frank

Almost everyone does. I doubt you could find a single self-respecting audio engineer who would agree that the difference between a good amplifier and a good amplifier tweaked in the ways Frank talks about would have a significant impact, much less make bad recordings and bad speakers good. Frank is an island.

Tim

 

[fas42]

Almost everyone does. I doubt you could find a single self-respecting audio engineer who would agree that the difference between a good amplifier and a good amplifier tweaked in the ways Frank talks about would have a significant impact, much less make bad recordings and bad speakers good. Frank is an island.

Tim

Not really. Highly aware designers are using the sort of the techniques I talk of, the difference is that they don't shout it from the rooftops, because they know at the moment this would have zero impact for the vast majority of buyers. So instead they rabbit on about using ultra expensive Teflon capacitors in their ads, because they know this is the sort of thing that is the big turn on for potential customers. You should give me some credit for being an engineer, Tim, I can read between the lines when the designers of good audio gear talk, and also view images of the interiors of well performing gear: they know what they're doing, but also know that application of good engineering strategies doesn't cause audiophiles to froth at the mouth with excitement, so they generally keep quiet about it ...

Frank

 

[fas42]

I dont think that two speakers with no distrotion will sound the same, there are different topologies that definitely sound different, even with the "no distortion" idea. An electrostatic tweeter will never sound like a silk dome tweeter, or a plasma tweeter. JMHO

Sorry, you can't have it both ways: either something distorts, or it sounds identical to another non-distorting device -- speaker, amplifier, CD player, etc. There is no other way ... unless you want to play linguistic games with what you call "distortion" ...

Frank

 

[RogerD]

Has anybody ever hit the wall with their gear? Seriously.

 

[Saturntube]

why?

 

[fas42]

I'd suggest a fun "game": I pick a combination of commercially, readily available $200 speaker and $10,000 amplifier, and everyone, anyone else picks a combination of $10,000 speaker and $200 amplifier, that each side thinks will do the "best job"; stick the two combos behind a curtain, give each side a day to tweak their contenders to give off their best, and then do some solid ABX comparisons with audio aware listeners, who don't know what the "trick" is. Which combo will come up trumps?

Frank

 

[Robh3606]

Has anybody ever hit the wall with their gear? Seriously.

Hit the meaning I am done with this and start over or hit the wall meaning I can't get any better??

Rob

 

[fas42]

Has anybody ever hit the wall with their gear? Seriously.

Well, there was this really crappy amplifier once, and I'd had enough: I picked it up and hurled it against the end of the room. Bits of metal flew in all directions, and there were sparks aplenty ...

Frank

 

[RogerD]

Hit the meaning I am done with this and start over or hit the wall meaning I can't get any better??

Rob

I was just wondering and I'm not talking about switching between tubes and solid state. Also the speakers would be the same through out.

Also I would say that after changing cables and making other changes that the the equipment quits improving.

 

[rbbert]

I dont think that two speakers with no distrotion will sound the same, there are different topologies that definitely sound different, even with the "no distortion" idea. An electrostatic tweeter will never sound like a silk dome tweeter, or a plasma tweeter. JMHO

The actual meaning of "distortion" is something distorted, i.e. different from the original. I think we can all agree that if there is a copy made with no distortion, it will be the same as the original. Likewise, there is little chance that any speaker made today, let alone 2 different speakers, will be distortion-free. If they actually were distortion-free, I suspect they would sound the same...much as it might pain me to agree with Frank (who does appear to be "right" about some things)

 

[fas42]

If they actually were distortion-free, I suspect they would sound the same...much as it might pain me to agree with Frank (who does appear to be "right" about some things)

This could be a bad trend, you'd better stop doing such things right now, or you'll get a ruler across your knuckles!!

Frank

 

[JackD201]

Well, there was this really crappy amplifier once, and I'd had enough: I picked it up and hurled it against the end of the room. Bits of metal flew in all directions, and there were sparks aplenty ...

Frank

Where did you find an amp with parts made of flint?

 

[fas42]

Where did you find an amp with parts made of flint?

Jack, I guess I sorta forgot at the time that the amp was still plugged into the mains! :b

No, this never happened: just my April, 1 effort ...

Frank

 

[caesar]

I find myself agreeing with Saturntube on carefully selecting the system components to make it right for the individual. And furthermore, the more of ourselves we put into system building, the better the system has a chance to put us in a state of flow and total immersion into the performance, where time and all problems disappear. Even something as simple as putting MEP's table radio in the right spot to kick up our legs, relax, and get lost will give that system more "soul".

 

[caesar]

I am surprised that dealers have not jumped in on this, as this is one the services they supposedly offer.

 

[mep]

I am surprised that dealers have not jumped in on this, as this is one the services they supposedly offer.

I thought preachers were in the soul business.

 

[JackD201]

I thought James Brown was in the Soul business.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I'd suggest a fun "game": I pick a combination of commercially, readily available $200 speaker and $10,000 amplifier, and everyone, anyone else picks a combination of $10,000 speaker and $200 amplifier, that each side thinks will do the "best job"; stick the two combos behind a curtain, give each side a day to tweak their contenders to give off their best, and then do some solid ABX comparisons with audio aware listeners, who don't know what the "trick" is. Which combo will come up trumps?

Frank

Of course with us on opposite sides of the world this is just a thought game, but I'll play, but $200 is shy. Make it $500. $500 amp/$10,000 speakers of my choice vs. $10,000 amp/$500 speakers of your choice. If you're about to tell me that, with the $10,000 amp you can make the $500 speakers sound better than the $10,000 ones, you have your answer regarding why I don't give you any cred as an engineer.

Tim

 

[fas42]

Of course with us on opposite sides of the world this is just a thought game, but I'll play, but $200 is shy. Make it $500. $500 amp/$10,000 speakers of my choice vs. $10,000 amp/$500 speakers of your choice. If you're about to tell me that, with the $10,000 amp you can make the $500 speakers sound better than the $10,000 ones, you have your answer regarding why I don't give you any cred as an engineer.

Tim

Well, that upping on money is sort of cheating because you just crossed the dividing line between bargain basement stuff, that put out by the manufacturer just to have a model in that price range, versus a serious effort to create a true value for money product. Which defeats the point of the exercise somewhat ...

That said, this is how the "battle" would resolve, I believe. Put on some Waterlily, and I'm sorry, twaddle and your contender would easily come up trumps: absolutely minimalist, audiophile orientated material which puts zero strain on the gear, apart from the subwoofers, will have "tonality" in spades with the upmarket speakers.

But as we up the ante, put on more and more "difficult" recordings: Steve's Duende, hard driving blues, big orchestral workouts, multi-track nightmares from the 60's, I believe my champion will have your beast on the floor, completely cold.

So, part of the "competition" rules are the recordings used to compare, and the volume levels the systems are run at, you see ...

Why do I have this "strange" belief? It's not the brainwashing of my engineering education days, but rather the actual experiencing of this behaviour, which causes me to put on my engineering hat to work things out ...

The "bad" engineer keeps building bridges the same way as everyone else, the way all the "experts" say it should be done. Only trouble is, every now and again a bridge collapses, but everyone accepts this is just how things have always been, and always should be. The "good" engineer worries about this, tries to understand why those bridges failed, and comes up with some radical ideas on why there is a problem, and suggests solutions: most of the other engineers laugh at him, say, "Get a life!", and continue on in their old ways ...

Frank