System Builders, How Does Your System get a SOUL?

[Saturntube]

Seems I need to be more specific about my Horn speakers. I have front horns from 100 hz up, and a bass system consisting of 4 woofers per side. I use a SET amp to drive the horns from 100 hz up and to drive also the "subwoofer" active line level xover (all analog) that goes into an SS 300 watt amp which does wonders with bass! The front horns have a high pass first order xover at 100 hz speaker level, and all first order xover from there on. This combination I found to have the best overall sound, and an amount of soul, that will make Motown shiver!

When multiamped properly, it does things with audio I never thought could happen!

 

[microstrip]

A system with soul ( in any definition ... ;-) ... ) needs a speaker system which works with the power amplifier.
Sounds easy - is hardly ever obtained in high-end audio. (...)
Tim

Tim,

Sorry, I disagree. We obtain it very often in high-end if we follow the advice of some knowledge people.

But the total number of possible combinations is so great and only a fraction are successful. Just random selection in the used bargain lists or picking good pieces in the audio best buy books is not enough.

Most of us would wish we know a good trusted rule for it. But designers of amplifiers and cables know about it. Although they usually hide it - otherwise they are showing a preference for some speakers and intrinsically loosing part of the whole market - their products usually sound better with the same speakers they used when they voiced their products.

I think it is something that some people understandably dislike in the high-end - there are no cookbooks or nice formulas. And just a small mistake in in one ingredient can spoil the meal. But sometimes we reverse known truths - one man's poison can be others meat. And most of us seem to enjoy high-end, even this way!

 

[andromedaaudio]

By turning up the volume

I agree with M strip

 

[DDB]

Well - I have built SET amplifiers with 845, 805, 300B, PX4, RE604, AD1, WE 275A and VT52 - the first pair as long back as 1990.
I know their virtues very well.
A 98 dB speaker with 4 ways and a Xover with 3rd or 4th order filters will not be to the liking of any SET - not even a WaVac HE833.
It may sound "great" to some, but it is not what is possible.
It is not opening the window to allow the recorded music to spell the soul.
There are dozens of "favorites" out there - at least as many amplifiers, speakers, cables etc as audiophiles.

I have abandoned SET amplifiers a few years back.
I am now into battery powered SEMOS and battery powered ultra simple push-pulls - both with power ratings in the range of 10-18 Watts.
For the sake of ultra low noise floor, the most subtle color shadings, dimensionality, extreme bass dynamics and the last word in resolution.
Having learned, that the magic midrange is not a feature of the SET, but a feature of the SE design.

 

[DDB]

I think it is something that some people understandably dislike in the high-end - there are no cookbooks or nice formulas. And just a small mistake in in one ingredient can spoil the meal. But sometimes we reverse known truths - one man's poison can be others meat. And most of us seem to enjoy high-end, even this way!

I think ( know .... ?) there are firm rules and a good cookbook for putting together and setting up an audio system which allows for soul in the reproduction of recorded music.
I know too, that it is certainly not wanted to publish such cookbooks, as they would inevitably get in the way of large part of the audio business.
And in the way of 99% of the audio community.
As Phelonious Ponk put it so nicely in his apodosis - "In high-end audio, you can't fight an opinion with the facts" ...... great ! Hitting the nail's head of this all ....

 

[andromedaaudio]

I believe that any audiophile who is honest to himself , will recognize accuracy to the recording as being truthfull to the soul .

 

[microstrip]

I believe that any audiophile who is honest to himself , will recognize accuracy to the recording as being truthfull to the soul .

After such comment we now need to go in debate about what is "accuracy to the recording" , because we all want to be honest to ourselves ...

 

[andromedaaudio]

because we all want to be honest to ourselves ...


I dont think so , but i think its all about reducing distortion

After such comment we now need to go in debate about what is "accuracy to the recording" , because we all want to be honest to ourselves ...

 

[DDB]

because we all want to be honest to ourselves ...


I dont think so , but i think its all about reducing distortion

That is certainly an important part of the game, but not the one and only - I would name it ( the reduction of distortion) a kind of logical and inevitable by-product along the path.

 

[microstrip]

because we all want to be honest to ourselves ...


I dont think so , but i think its all about reducing distortion

andromedaaudio,

Sorry, but this is just a generic statement and considered as such is too ambiguous and can be misleading. Or do you consider that an amplifier having .05% THD must sound better than one having .06% THD?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I agree that big iron shouldn't be necessary, but let's assume, for the sake of the discussion, that we have it anyway. We have an extremely low noise, low distortion, linear, powerful amp that is highly unlikely to see anything in a competent speaker design, efficient or otherwise, that it cannot handle. What else could amp and speakers need to make a good match?

Tim

 

[andromedaaudio]

The most distortion will happen in speakers of course, i think its also a matter of money , serious designs cost a certain amount of money , if one is not able
to put something great together with 100.000$ he might as well start another hobby

Sorry, but this is just a generic statement and considered as such is too ambiguous and can be misleading. Or do you consider that an amplifier having .05% THD must sound better than one having .06% THD?[/QUOTE]

 

[microstrip]

I agree that big iron shouldn't be necessary, but let's assume, for the sake of the discussion, that we have it anyway. We have an extremely low noise, low distortion, linear, powerful amp that is highly unlikely to see anything in a competent speaker design, efficient or otherwise, that it cannot handle. What else could amp and speakers need to make a good match?

Tim

Tim,
Although I have already told I do not know your answer many manufacturers use the vague word "voiced" for describing this synergy.

 

[fas42]

The most distortion will happen in speakers of course, i think its also a matter of money , serious designs cost a certain amount of money , if one is not able
to put something great together with 100.000$ he might as well start another hobby

Sorry, but this is just a generic statement and considered as such is too ambiguous and can be misleading. Or do you consider that an amplifier having .05% THD must sound better than one having .06% THD?

I'm afraid this is one of the big "misunderstandings" in audio. Yes, distortion is everything: by definition, if two systems have no audible distortion then they will sound completely identical; to the last nut and bolt. As soon as someone says a system or component has a certain sound or tone, they are actually saying it has an identifiable distortion content. So then you have a choice: assemble a setup to give you "nice", appealing, distortion; or eliminate the audible distortion.

So, where does the distortion come from? Well, because it is an obvious source, people say the speakers are primary cause. But all my "work" over the years has shown me that it is the interaction of the speakers and amplifier that are the cause of a good part of the obvious misbehaviour. In simple terms, attach a "perfect" amplifier to a "miserable" speaker, and that speaker will be dramatically transformed in capability: on a regular basis I read of people having these experiences and then dismissing it as being irrelevant. But, it does tell you what's going on ...

Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim,

Sorry, I disagree. We obtain it very often in high-end if we follow the advice of some knowledge people.

But the total number of possible combinations is so great and only a fraction are successful. Just random selection in the used bargain lists or picking good pieces in the audio best buy books is not enough.

Most of us would wish we know a good trusted rule for it. But designers of amplifiers and cables know about it. Although they usually hide it - otherwise they are showing a preference for some speakers and intrinsically loosing part of the whole market - their products usually sound better with the same speakers they used when they voiced their products.

I think it is something that some people understandably dislike in the high-end - there are no cookbooks or nice formulas. And just a small mistake in in one ingredient can spoil the meal. But sometimes we reverse known truths - one man's poison can be others meat. And most of us seem to enjoy high-end, even this way!

Sorry, Micro, we got way off track here, because I failed to use the quote button properly. The quote you're responding to here wasn't me, it was DDB.

Tim

 

[andromedaaudio]

Is good sound all that difficult ????
Soul ?????Money

I looked on the internet this morning :

Arc ref 2 asking price 2800 euro
Pass labs X 350 3800 euro
Avalon ascendant +- 4000 euro

Good products /good audio
Enjoy, dont complain

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Is good sound all that difficult ????
Soul ?????Money

Good sound is not even particularly expensive. "Soul," it seems, is barely attainable.

Tim

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

I'm still not getting this whole "soul" thing discussion. Seems that some believe it's relative to price and only a substantial investment will get you "soul". Hogwash! You and I bring "soul" to our gear, not the other way around. JMHO!

 

[Saturntube]

IME the most faulty systems and thus the most important are the one that combine mechanics and electronics, or that transform an electrical impulse into a mechanical one. According to this statement (which someone might not agree to) then the most important parts of the audio chain should be the speakers and yes the cartridge, or cd transport or the heads of an RTR etc. So I courteosuly disagree with Frank, in saying than a good amplifier will make any speaker sound good, quite the opposite, ime, almost any amplifier has a good enough response in most of the range, a bad sepaker can make or break the deal. But lets just state both of them need to have at least a certain quality to enter the High End realm.

"You and I bring "soul" to our gear, not the other way around"

I do agree on this statement and this is why I say it takes time to get a system to have "soul", how much investment it will take, well there are a couple of things here. First: A system must be "correctly" put toghether, the amp must be able to drive the speakers, the preamp and sources should have the correct impedance differential between them. This way maybe even a cheap system will sound very good. Second: For a piece of gear to have soul it needs to me very well made, unluckily most of the times this is not cheap! Now an amplifier that is well made doesnt need to be that expensive, or a preamp etc. But the parts that combine mechanics and electronics, to be well made, becomes expensive, and the more money and over construction that goes into it, the better they sound!

 

[Saturntube]

I dont think that two speakers with no distrotion will sound the same, there are different topologies that definitely sound different, even with the "no distortion" idea. An electrostatic tweeter will never sound like a silk dome tweeter, or a plasma tweeter. JMHO