System Builders, How Does Your System get a SOUL?

[Phelonious Ponk]

We all have heard super duper expensive systems that just did not have "it". We were not moved. We thought you spent $100K on your Wilsons or Magicos or Focals + $100K on your ancillaries and it sucks!

Yes, but we will never all agree on what systems these are, or what it is...

But what makes a system get that unmeasurable, unquantifiable, intangible, seemingly mystical capability to convey the emotions of the performance while exalting and stimulating the person listening?

Wait for it....

So what was it? Room treatments? The right amp? source? pre-amp? Cables? Cable elevators? a combination?

None of the above, though some of those things can enable it....

What gave your system soul?

At least a decent (the better the better) recording of great music. Nothing else has any soul to impart to my (or any) system. If you have gear that adds something you think of as "soul," it can only be what gear is capable of -- tonality, stereo imaging, transient response, etc. It may be more or less accurate, it would take a lot of work to sort that out. What doesn't take a lot of work is deciding if you like. If you do, enjoy, but accept that it is your preference, not an intangible infusion of magic that we will all love. One man's "soul" is another man's analytical.

And there's your objectivist can of whoopass.

Tim

 

[RogerD]

It is possible for a audiophile system to convey the composer's or artist's view of the composition,his intent,and the human part of the music. Lesser systems give a glimpse at best of the heart of the music. Neil Young's Massey Hall is a perfect example as the interaction between artist,instrument and audience,a somewhat perfect example of the highest art.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

It is possible for a audiophile system to convey the composer's or artist's view of the composition,his intent,and the human part of the music. Lesser systems give a glimpse at best of the heart of the music. Neil Young's Massey Hall is a perfect example as the interaction between artist,instrument and audience,a somewhat perfect example of the highest art.

I don't agree, although I have no doubt higher end systems may do a better job. To say it only gives lesser system's a glimpse is inaccurate. I assure you that I feel no lack of emotion or clarity when listening to this on my system. And I can say that about a lot of recordings I own. Additionally, I have heard this (and other) recordings on more expensive systems, and while there was extra detail apparent, at no point did I feel cheated or desire to run out and buy more expensive equipment.

It should be said that this recording in particular is so well done that it beneifits a lesser system by it's sheer (dare I say) perfect quality in every regard (from recording to mastering to pressing).

 

[RogerD]

I don't agree, although I have no doubt higher end systems may do a better job. To say it only gives lesser system's a glimpse is inaccurate. I assure you that I feel no lack of emotion or clarity when listening to this on my system. And I can say that about a lot of recordings I own. Additionally, I have heard this (and other) recordings on more expensive systems, and while there was extra detail apparent, at no point did I feel cheated or desire to run out and buy more expensive equipment.

It should be said that this recording in particular is so well done that it beneifits a lesser system by it's sheer (dare I say) perfect quality in every regard (from recording to mastering to pressing).

John, you then by my definition have a system that reproduces the "heart" of the music.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

John, you then by my definition have a system that reproduces the "heart" of the music.

It does, but I have no illusion of its limitation either.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

It is possible for a audiophile system to convey the composer's or artist's view of the composition,his intent,and the human part of the music.

Of course. If you have a soul, it's possible for an iPod to convey that.

Lesser systems give a glimpse at best of the heart of the music.

Less than your own, I assume?

Neil Young's Massey Hall is a perfect example as the interaction between artist,instrument and audience,a somewhat perfect example of the highest art.

A perfect example, in my opinion, of how we talk ourselves into believing in the superiority of our personal choices. Massey Hall is all midrange; it certainly does not take a SOTA system to reproduce its range. And while it captures a very nice sense of ambient space, along tha way it also captures quite a bit of ambient noise. The noise floor of the room it's recorded in certainly exceeds the noise floor of the tape it was recorded on, which greatly exceeds the noise floor of well executed mid-fi. Detail? Most of it is a Martin Dreadnought and Young's voice; recorded with a lot of room ambience (I don't know, but I'd bet with mics out in the room, mixed with close-mic'd instruments and voice after the fact). That ambience, or something, masks a bit of detail. I've listened to Massey Hall on reference headphones, and yes, there is detail in the recording, but it's not all that much compared to what is often captured in good studio recordings of acoustic instruments. Heck, the playing is not that detailed. Then there is that sense of space, and that's the recording. Sure, you need decent channel separation to capture it, but it's not a big deal. It's one guy/one instrument at a time. It's certainly not an imaging challenge. Everything but the ambience is mono.

Nah, Massey Hall just isn't hard. It's all about the recording, the sense of space they captured, and they way they subtly and artfully mixed it into the direct signals. I'll bet John's Totems, appropriately amped and placed in an appropriately-sized room, are 99% of the way to SOTA on Massey Hall. This is why it's one of the most popular mainstream recordings among audiophiles -- it sounds good on everybody's system. But if you want to believe that most systems are a shadow of your own because Massey Hall sounds good on it, have fun with that.

Tim

 

[RogerD]

Of course. If you have a soul, it's possible for an iPod to convey that.



Less than your own, I assume?



A perfect example, in my opinion, of how we talk ourselves into believing in the superiority of our personal choices. Massey Hall is all midrange; it certainly does not take a SOTA system to reproduce its range. And while it captures a very nice sense of ambient space, along tha way it also captures quite a bit of ambient noise. The noise floor of the room it's recorded in certainly exceeds the noise floor of the tape it was recorded on, which greatly exceeds the noise floor of well executed mid-fi. Detail? Most of it is a Martin Dreadnought and Young's voice; recorded with a lot of room ambience (I don't know, but I'd bet with mics out in the room, mixed with close-mic'd instruments and voice after the fact). That ambience, or something, masks a bit of detail. I've listened to Massey Hall on reference headphones, and yes, there is detail in the recording, but it's not all that much compared to what is often captured in good studio recordings of acoustic instruments. Heck, the playing is not that detailed. Then there is that sense of space, and that's the recording. Sure, you need decent channel separation to capture it, but it's not a big deal. It's one guy/one instrument at a time. It's certainly not an imaging challenge. Everything but the ambience is mono.

Nah, Massey Hall just isn't hard. It's all about the recording, the sense of space they captured, and they way they subtly and artfully mixed it into the direct signals. I'll bet John's Totems, appropriately amped and placed in an appropriately-sized room, are 99% of the way to SOTA on Massey Hall. This is why it's one of the most popular mainstream recordings among audiophiles -- it sounds good on everybody's system. But if you want to believe that most systems are a shadow of your own because Massey Hall sounds good on it, have fun with that.

Tim

Tim,

What I hear in the Massey Hall recording that makes it so life like is not the midrage but the heavily layered holographic nuanced spatial effects of the hall itself,Neil Young's voice inflections and projections out into the space of the hall,and not to mention the spatial ques of the audience. I haven't even mentioned the tonal realism of the instruments.

Your ipod quip I won't address.....

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim,

What I hear in the Massey Hall recording that makes it so life like is not the midrage but the heavily layered holographic nuanced spatial effects of the hall itself,Neil Young's voice inflections and projections out into the space of the hall,and not to mention the spatial ques of the audience. I haven't even mentioned the tonal realism of the instruments.

Your ipod quip I won't address.....

Roger, watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uG1HY2zLc1s

What you'll see is microphones a few inches from Young's mouth, a few inches from Young's guitar, hanging directly over, pointed into the grand piano. Close mic'd. As close as any studio recording. Now pay attention to what is around him and his instruments: Space. Lots of space. There aren't any reflections coming back to those microphones for a long, long time, and when they do come back, they're coming from a PA system (probably the stage monitors!), not from the instruments and his voice. Trust me, the engineers' job is to minimize them; drive them so far below the primary signal that they become insignificant. So where is this famous Massey Hall ambience coming from? Probably from mics placed in the audience to record the sound of the hall, which is then mixed back into the signals from the mics on stage. There might even be a bit of electronic reverb added in.

So what is my point? What you're hearing in the Massey Hall recording that is so "life like" is not "the holographic nuanced spatial effects of the hall itself," it is a false construct, an audio mirage. A very well-constructed illusion. A bit of room reflections from here, some applause from there...maybe if they had a lot of time they might have even hung some mics from the ceiling. This is the way it is done, and what you end up with can be pretty nice, a great illusion, but the lifelike sound of the hall itself? No. If you want to keep on believing that what you're hearing is the real room ambience, OK. But when you cross the line to begin talking lesser systems' inability to reproduce it, the hubris is just too much. I'll have to put a pin in that big bubblehead. I know what's going on in the Massey Hall recording. I hear it on a pair of active monitors smaller than your amps.

Tim

 

[fas42]

I don't agree, although I have no doubt higher end systems may do a better job. To say it only gives lesser system's a glimpse is inaccurate. I assure you that I feel no lack of emotion or clarity when listening to this on my system. And I can say that about a lot of recordings I own. Additionally, I have heard this (and other) recordings on more expensive systems, and while there was extra detail apparent, at no point did I feel cheated or desire to run out and buy more expensive equipment.

It should be said that this recording in particular is so well done that it beneifits a lesser system by it's sheer (dare I say) perfect quality in every regard (from recording to mastering to pressing).

Before things get too heated up, John's last point is on the mark: some recordings are of a nature that they sound good on almost anything. Dire Straits' efforts fall into this area, the crappiest car radio does a good job; and on a top notch system it all still comes together.

No, for me it's all about how a system handles the tricky recordings, not the falling of a log stuff. I'm just playing with "Dusty in Memphis" on the really plain Jane CD release; this is a rough effort. It will sound good on a conventional system, but for an audiophile setup that's got "issues" this will be excrutiating to listen to. There's lots of deep ambience captured but it's gone through so many cycles of electronics, especially that of the late 60's, that it can pretty hard work to listen to. To unravel it all the system has to have lots of "soul", cleanness, so that you can tune into Dusty's soul, unencumbered by the film of the added distortion ...

Frank

 

[RogerD]

Roger, watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uG1HY2zLc1s

What you'll see is microphones a few inches from Young's mouth, a few inches from Young's guitar, hanging directly over, pointed into the grand piano. Close mic'd. As close as any studio recording. Now pay attention to what is around him and his instruments: Space. Lots of space. There aren't any reflections coming back to those microphones for a long, long time, and when they do come back, they're coming from a PA system (probably the stage monitors!), not from the instruments and his voice. Trust me, the engineers' job is to minimize them; drive them so far below the primary signal that they become insignificant. So where is this famous Massey Hall ambience coming from? Probably from mics placed in the audience to record the sound of the hall, which is then mixed back into the signals from the mics on stage. There might even be a bit of electronic reverb added in.

So what is my point? What you're hearing in the Massey Hall recording that is so "life like" is not "the holographic nuanced spatial effects of the hall itself," it is a false construct, an audio mirage. A very well-constructed illusion. A bit of room reflections from here, some applause from there...maybe if they had a lot of time they might have even hung some mics from the ceiling. This is the way it is done, and what you end up with can be pretty nice, a great illusion, but the lifelike sound of the hall itself? No. If you want to keep on believing that what you're hearing is the real room ambience, OK. But when you cross the line to begin talking lesser systems' inability to reproduce it, the hubris is just too much. I'll have to put a pin in that big bubblehead. I know what's going on in the Massey Hall recording. I hear it on a pair of active monitors smaller than your amps.

Tim

Good for you.

 

[Saturntube]

I would say that s systems souls needs to be dependant on the system, not the recording. IF it was only recording dependant even an ipod should be able to deliver magic! and we all know that i not going to happen!

Another thing "soul" on a system can be a personal taste, so if someone likes big amps and little speakers and can find a soul in that, fine! I personally like big horns and little amps.

Now about a system I will start with more conventional choices. All my life as an audiophile I have been collecting gear that, to me, has a definitive sound that I like, that I think carries a good "soul" element. Ussualy this gear is well known and pretty unattainable since its soulis easy to recognize: Just to name a few that I know and have owned: Leak TL12.1 amps, these amps are historically filled with a great sound and a lot of soul, really hard to beat in that department. Another piece of gear with a great soul is the Forsell CD transport. Another one that comes to mind right now are the Sonus Faber Extrema speakers. What all this gear has in common is that it si very well madem well though off and executed with no price limitations in mind. NOw it is also the talent of the audiophile to slect the special gear that to him , sounds good and being able to set it up and mix it in properly. Leak amps will never run the Extrema speakers no matter what indian chief you bring to chrissen it!

Now on a more specifc note thing that I found out brings an incredible soul to a system is Time alignement of the drivers in a speaker, playing frequiencies over 20khz and under 20hz, correct room placement and treatment, mulitamping in a correct way, nickel trafos and ribbon cables.

 

[Saturntube]

Another most important thing:

The systems I have listened to that bear a soul are always, old systems, systems that have been playing for a long time toghether and where new elements are introduced with a lot of care and intent.

If you change gear like a a skinny teenager in a mall, you will never get a system with soul...
Even if by chance you hit the right combination, you will never be around to notice it!

 

[microstrip]

(...) Just to name a few that I know and have owned: Leak TL12.1 amps, these amps are historically filled with a great sound and a lot of soul, really hard to beat in that department. Another piece of gear with a great soul is the Forsell CD transport. Another one that comes to mind right now are the Sonus Faber Extrema speakers. (...)

Saturntube,

Three great choices in a single sentence! I also have owned two of them, but never managed to get a TL12.1 - only a TL20, and in this particular case the lower number model is more powerful and better sounding.

 

[Saturntube]

I have owned the TL-12.1, the TL-10 and the TL-12+

The TL-20 is a stereo version of the TL-12+, it is what I think is one of the best 6BQ5 amps ever. It has great tone and delicacy, it is actually the successor of the TL12.1 but it is inferior to it.
And a very different beast altogether. Both, or actually the three of them are 12 watts per channel, deep class A push pull.

I found on most speakers this triode combination of class A and PP is better than Single ended. SETs really have a big problem driving mid sensitivity speakers, say from 92 db to 96 db.
For these speakers I think you will have a hard time finding something better than the Leak amps. Now for over 98 db, or maybe even 100 db SETs are magical! JMHO

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Another most important thing:

The systems I have listened to that bear a soul are always, old systems, systems that have been playing for a long time toghether and where new elements are introduced with a lot of care and intent.

If you change gear like a a skinny teenager in a mall, you will never get a system with soul...
Even if by chance you hit the right combination, you will never be around to notice it!

So why do you think this happens? Do the amps and the speakers get to know each other and become more compatible over time? Do the innerconnect cables adjust to the impedances of the components they're attached to, or just get settled into the length over which they have to carry the signal and learn, like a long-distance runner, to cover that distance more efficiently? Do the crossovers, perhaps, begin to understand, with experience, how much power the amps are delivering and learn how to divide it up effectively among the drivers?

Tim

 

[Saturntube]

Very interesting question Tim, and I do believe most of them to be necessary. Even just one piece change will take a couple of days to "tune in". Nickel trafos need about a week to start making their magic and the first couple of hours they are unbearable!

But I think it is far simpler than that and less esoteric. Lets say I give you a list of gear to make a wonderful magic system, you purchase the gear and put it toghether in a perfect room, then it might only be the phenomena you describe above, and in a couple of weeks you can have a great sounding system. But this list doesnt exist, and even if it did, what might sound great to one guy might not be "it" for the other one.
Most of the times one has to start from scratch in order to build a system, make a lot of errors and some good buys. Great systems come from a long time of selecting gear that not only sounds good to us, but that combines perfectly with the other one. A good speaker amp combination is the most important, but a bad preamp can kill it! If you dont take your time to identify the rotten egg, and say, sell the amps and keep the preamp, wow, it will take a lot of time untill you find another amp that will work the magic or deciding to finally sell the bad expensive preamp everybody says it is sooo good! This works for almost all the Audio chain, the pick up cartridge might be great but the tonearm doesnt let it sound its best, the phono stage might not be the correct one for that cartridge, the DAC and transport migth be wrong for each other. I bought my Forsell transport from a guy who had it hooked to a Benchmark DAC which at the time had all these glowing reviews and has disapeared since, to my fortune, he could not believe the Benchmark dac was "bad" piece of gear, but the sound was plain awful, too detailed with absolutely no soul, no organic textures, shouty and with digititis on the highs... I use it with my EAD dac and is is killer!
Getting the right parts in the right room with the right cables, tuning in a subwoofer perfectly, takes a lot of time and patience: If you are just following the latest trend you might just never know what has gone through your room!

 

[DDB]

A system with soul ( in any definition ... ;-) ... ) needs a speaker system which works with the power amplifier.
Sounds easy - is hardly ever obtained in high-end audio.
The loudspeaker and the power amplifier(s) connected to it do form a team - the output stage of the power amplifier and the x-over of the speaker in conjunction with damping factor, efficiency should be viewed as one system.
Dozens of other demands for a system with soul jump into mind, but a phase coherent, high resolution and high efficiency ( it starts to get really interesting with true 97/98 dB/1W/1m - which does NOT mean "horn" !!) speaker system capable to really cover 20 Hz to 30kHz (minimum) with an easy load (NO complex x-over of 3rd to 5th order) for the power amplifier and minimum phase shift is a very good start which gives a real chance to reach the goal.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

A system with soul ( in any definition ... ;-) ... ) needs a speaker system which works with the power amplifier.
Sounds easy - is hardly ever obtained in high-end audio.

What do you mean by "works with the power amplifier?" Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you have some really serious amplification, the kind of big iron that delivers power, in every form that matters, to spare. And let's assume you have speakers that are very conservatively rated at 98dB, and by conservatively I mean that is the average, not the peak efficiency, in an impedance curve that is reasonably even.

What else could keep these speakers and amplifiers from working well together?

Tim

 

[DDB]

What do you mean by "works with the power amplifier?" Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you have some really serious amplification, the kind of big iron that delivers power, in every form that matters, to spare. And let's assume you have speakers that are very conservatively rated at 98dB, and by conservatively I mean that is the average, not the peak efficiency, in an impedance curve that is reasonably even.

What else could keep these speakers and amplifiers from working well together?

Tim

First - in my honest opinion an amplifier with "big iron" (big power) should never be necessary.
A high power amplifier with the most often going with it higher damping factor is only needed for inefficient speakers which do need a lot of control - most often the case with vented woofer cabinet (bass-reflex).
By "work with the power amplifier" I mean that the speaker and the power amplifier shall not be viewed at separately.
In a serious audio set-up they are not individual components, but 2 parts of one system within the audio set-up (similar to a LOMC in conjunction with a truly matching SUT ... rarely obtained too ... ).
A complex xover remains a complex xover even if the impedance curve might be pretty flat with little peaks and slow rise.
For example: even with 108 dB 5-way horn system with 3rd order filters, you have a complex xover which looks for the output stage of a 10 Watt SET like a black hole.
These would not work together well.
There might be some good sound coming from the set-up anyway, but nothing great.

Another example: a 100 dB speaker system with active controlled and sealed subwoofer and a 2-3 way system working from say: 100 Hz upwards, featuring drivers which allow for 1st order filters with minimal phase shift - this will work very well with a 10W SET - because the secondary of the output transformer sees an easy and simple load to drive with ease.


In the very end, we are not looking for the soul in the system, but for a system which may allow the soul in the music to shine through and spell it's magic in our listening room.

 

[Saturntube]

I think it is obvious that 86 db speakers and 9 watt SETs sporting 300B tubes will not be a good match! But it will have that great midrange that SETs are famous for. Mainly because it will be only frequency they will be able to drive due to easy impedance at that range.

"speakers that are very conservatively rated at 98dB"

That is the beauty of 98 db speakers, you have a great choice of amps to play with, but I think you meant 88 db.

I am no expert here, but there are a lot of different qualities of big SS 300 watt amps, some better than others and most of them cannot play the voices right. When you finally find one that does everything perfect with those speakers, keep it! It sounds simple but I had friends that can never get the "SET" midrange on their 88 db speakers with a powerfull amp that will deliver credible bass! Very big problem! mainly if you want to stay under the 5k range!

Now I got 110 db Front Horn 4 way speakers and really ANY amp will drive them perfectly. I have tested a lot of amps. Most SS simple amps, Chip amp type sound scratchy. Good quality big SS 300 watt amps sound great, the better the quality of the amp the better the sound, and yes good voices too and tons of detail... but a bit cold and univolving. Multi tube Push Pull amps tend to sound dark, too many tubes working agianst each other I believe. SET amps loose their "magical midrange" quality and become what they really are, dynamic monsters! yes a 3.5 watt SET amps on the right speakers can sound even more dynamic than a 300 watt SS amp on the same speakers! The SS amp can have output swings that could kill your ears, but not the speed and accuracy of the SET amps. Now even on SET there are of course qualities, and to my taste the simpler more direct ones are always better! the lesser the gain stages and direct coupled are always the best most transparent that deliver than SOUL we are all looking for in tons! My favorite today 1.5 watts...