Tad reference 1
- Thread starter Smokin' Joe
- Start date
Agreed.....always wondered how that came about. It certainly turned out well but I think he left his mark on the designs and the legacy of the company; it will be interested to see what comes next. They are up against strong competition in APJ from Accuphase and Esoteric, more on the global stage but they seem to hold their own in speakers to say the least and I'd bet if they chose one thing to focus on, it would be that.
Definitely,...thanks for clarifying. Hoping you and yours have a very Merry Christmas!
All I know is that it didn't end well. I have no idea what deal got him to go to Pioneer. I don't even know if he went there straight from KEF.
I wouldn't be surprised if he eventually did go independent. What I'm curious to see in the meantime is if ELAC will set him loose on cost no object projects like Pioneer did.
Jack it does it appear this might be a subject for another thread.
Is that where we are? Cost no object. Or are they just trying to pry discretionary income from some well heeled buyers? Not that I have a problem with either apprpach.
Is that where we are? Cost no object. Or are they just trying to pry discretionary income from some well heeled buyers? Not that I have a problem with either apprpach.
That would depend on on the final outcome wouldn't it? I mean if it's really good then it's no longer a cash grab right? You're right though I think we've gone OT.
+1 - everything I have heard suggests he was more of a brand ambassdaor and the TAD Engineers were the stars of the show.
A very similar experience here... i contribute it to the BE drivers... even my previous focal stellas had the tendency to sound harsh at high SPL , due to that BE tweeter.
As to the future of TAD- inmo, unless pioneer truly commits to continue the TAD distribution ,and improve its marketing, i only see it eventually ending up as an exercise in l-look- what- we-can -do - with- a -$2 -million+ budget......
First, the TAD Reference series is Andrew's design, he wasn't just a "brand ambassador". He designed the Reference series first, then the Evolution series as a more affordable alternative, then the speaker that became the Pioneer S-1EX and S-2EX as a 2nd tier down, then S-3EX as 3rd tier. They were all designed by AJ for TAD, but Pioneer needed a new flagship speaker so the 2nd and 3rd tiers were labeled Pioneer but are made in TAD's facilities.
Also, I am sure that the Be drivers don't have any audible resonances or are causing any harshness at higher SPLs. Be is far superior to other hard cone materials and and TAD has some good talent and ears. They are simply too good for most systems. With a speaker like that if you don't use good enough electronics, cables and power you hear it. And unfortunately, it's very common, even at higher price points. Use TAD electronics, decent cables and a good power conditioner and I'd bet all issues will disappear.
Also, I am sure that the Be drivers don't have any audible resonances or are causing any harshness at higher SPLs. Be is far superior to other hard cone materials and and TAD has some good talent and ears. They are simply too good for most systems. With a speaker like that if you don't use good enough electronics, cables and power you hear it. And unfortunately, it's very common, even at higher price points. Use TAD electronics, decent cables and a good power conditioner and I'd bet all issues will disappear.
That's my (limited as I've only had the R1s a short time) experience here; even on Day 1 when such things are normally more apparent than most other days, when throwing "Show Me" tracks (30 of them that go after the best and worst of what a system/speaker can or cannot do), at any SPL 60-70 on my preamp (0..100 scale) with an Esoteric A-02 amp (so clearly hefty SPLs were achieved), playing pipe organ tracks with ultra deep bass and ultra-shrill stops in use and may other challenging discs, I did not hear a hit of harshness.
My guess is your amp is having problems driving them to high SPL so it gets harsh. Try a higher current amp that doubles in 4 ohm.
Definitely agree,...I know folks with these speakers with a multitude of great amps as well who state they are not impacted by the 'harsh' effect written about here;
My Setup: Esoteric A-02 (RATED: 200W into 8-ohm, 400W into 4-ohm, etc...BTL: 800W into 8-ohm if used in bridged mode) (MAX POWER: 250W into 8-ohm, 500W into 4-ohm, etc..BTL: 1000W into 8-ohm if used in bridged mode), frequency response 5 Hz - 100 kHz (1W, 8-ohms, +/- 1db), THD < 0.009%
Others: Accuphase (various top-end models), Bryston 28B3, 7B3, B.M.C. monoblocks, LAMM M2.2, Esoteric A-02, Esoteric Grandioso Monos, others.
I think there are three critical things that sum up to the speakers not sounding harsh;
- the aforementioned 'sufficient power & headroom' behavior of your amps
- the ability to go beyond 20 Hz-20 kHz 'cleanly',...remember, the Be concentric driver is rated up to 100 kHz. If the amp(s) in question are clean up to 20 kHz but aren't rated over that for various reasons (THD goes way up, etc...) then that MAY spell trouble with such a driver
- using 100% silver interconnects and/or speaker cables (guessing here based upon my prior experience with all-silver high-interconnects). I'd be willing to be the wrong metallurgy may show the drivers as harsh when it fact it is the signal coming in over a 100% pure silver (not literally 'pure', no copper-edged or copper-coated, no blends of metallurgy) interconnect. My interconnects and speaker cables are multi-ribbon in nature, the ribbons are ultra wide and are a blend of multiple metals; there is some silver involved for speed and clarity but overall, the mix of metals works the best...
Thoughts? Clearly the above is all IMHO...
As someone who knows Altanpsx's current and previous audio setups and also tested his current electronics with some other speakers, I have reasonable grounds to say his stated issues with Ref1s can't be attributed to power amps in question (Ypsilon Aelius Ii monos, 250w@8ohms, 350w@4ohms). Last but not the least, that issue of forwardness and harshness didn't take place at very high listening levels, we barely pushed the volume from low listening levels into just moderate. The issue should be related to something else, whether the synergy with cables or preamp etc.
I also agree that Ref1s are true first class speakers. When listened to under ideal conditions, they simply sound magnificent. Very few speakers can give that much of sheer musical satisfaction which Ref1s are capable of.
Yes, any silver less than 5N purity will be an issue, UPOCC silver or OCC silver/gold alloy has the least side-effects of any wire. Brass/copper alloy connectors can cause grain and/or harshness, both cable plugs and the chassis jacks. Internal signal wire in the components and speakers, and binding posts make a huge difference. If the AC power is completely untreated it's not going to sound as good as it could, there will certainly be at least some glare and harshness even if you don't think it exists. After it's gone you'll know it was there.
Ribbon cables tend to be smooth-sounding no matter what they're made of and sound very nice, but they do give up a bit of resolution. Cables and AC power are the backbone of a system and if they don't perform well you can easily spend mid 6-figures on a system that'll never be satisfactory, ever. I've heard these kinds of systems literally transformed from ugly sounding to SOTA by exchanging cables and adding power filtration. One guy even said "this is the kind of sound I've only heard a few times in very special systems that cost a fortune" after switching out cables and adding power conditioning to his system, Lamhorns w/AER drivers and Air Tight/Fi SET amplification. This guy used to own a HiFi store. VSA's VR55s went from sounding ugly with glare and harshness to winning TAS best-in-show, cost-no-object at their debut during RMAF 2014 after adding power conditioning via my modded SurgeX. I know there's a lot of skepticism wrt these things but they are critical and impossible to ignore if you want good results.
Also, handling vibration in speakers and components is important, spiking a speaker to a concrete floor is a great way to produce harshness. Spiking speakers to any floor is a bad idea imo, but lots of people think that a concrete floor is so solid and the speaker should be coupled to it, but this is absolutely wrong. Isolate your speakers from the floor instead and see how much it cleans up the soundstage...
I'll actually revise my thoughts on acoustics wrt these speakers... I think it is more likely to be the room than what I was thinking before and it could be an issue well before the room is "overloaded" with excessive SPLs. These speakers extend way out to 100 kHz, as SCA said, and they aren't rolled off. IME, for most folks a normal, moderately live listening room isn't the best choice with flat speakers and can easily be perceived as being annoying or harsh. It's the same issue Focal has, they are often setup at shows in rooms that are far too live for their ruler-flat high end FR. I've also heard them at Boulder Amplifier in a very damp room and the objections I hear about the piercing treble seems very far off, like it couldn't possibly be those speakers. I'd suggest the TADs would do best in a room that has shorter than average decay times. This isn't hard to measure and adjust for, any acoustic products company can help. And, if anyone wants to demo cables or power conditioning, let me know... I can guarantee they won't cause any harshness, won't effect dynamics, and will likely be more clear and resolving vs whatever you're currently using.
Thanks for the posting and all the info; I'm sure other things could be coming into play as well even though my initial email did not give all that could be at play. I am not hearing any of the issues with harshness or forward playback here; I have very musical renditions, rock solid imaging, sound stage, instrument and voice placement, separation, air around instruments, etc....seems my room and equipment plus power back-plane is a good match. All that with only 150+ hours; kind of scary to think they are only 1/3 the way towards their break-in point!
Yes, any silver less than 5N purity will be an issue, UPOCC silver or OCC silver/gold alloy has the least side-effects of any wire. Brass/copper alloy connectors can cause grain and/or harshness, both cable plugs and the chassis jacks. Internal signal wire in the components and speakers, and binding posts make a huge difference. If the AC power is completely untreated it's not going to sound as good as it could, there will certainly be at least some glare and harshness even if you don't think it exists. After it's gone you'll know it was there.
Cables and AC power are the backbone of a system and if they don't perform well you can easily spend mid 6-figures on a system that'll never be satisfactory, ever. I've heard these kinds of systems literally transformed from ugly sounding to SOTA by exchanging cables and adding power filtration. One guy even said "this is the kind of sound I've only heard a few times in very special systems that cost a fortune" after switching out cables and adding power conditioning to his system, Lamhorns w/AER drivers and Air Tight/Fi SET amplification. This guy used to own a HiFi store. VSA's VR55s went from sounding ugly with glare and harshness to winning TAS best-in-show, cost-no-object at their debut during RMAF 2014 after adding power conditioning via my modded SurgeX. I know there's a lot of skepticism wrt these things but they are critical and impossible to ignore if you want good results.
Also, handling vibration in speakers and components is important, spiking a speaker to a concrete floor is a great way to produce harshness. Spiking speakers to any floor is a bad idea imo, but lots of people think that a concrete floor is so solid and the speaker should be coupled to it, but this is absolutely wrong. Isolate your speakers from the floor instead and see how much it cleans up the soundstage...
I'll actually revise my thoughts on acoustics wrt these speakers... I think it is more likely to be the room than what I was thinking before and it could be an issue well before the room is "overloaded" with excessive SPLs. These speakers extend way out to 100 kHz, as SCA said, and they aren't rolled off. IME, for most folks a normal, moderately live listening room isn't the best choice with flat speakers and can easily be perceived as being annoying or harsh. It's the same issue Focal has, they are often setup at shows in rooms that are far too live for their ruler-flat high end FR. I've also heard them at Boulder Amplifier in a very damp room and the objections I hear about the piercing treble seems very far off, like it couldn't possibly be those speakers. I'd suggest the TADs would do best in a room that has shorter than average decay times. This isn't hard to measure and adjust for, any acoustic products company can help. And, if anyone wants to demo cables or power conditioning, let me know... I can guarantee they won't cause any harshness, won't effect dynamics, and will likely be more clear and resolving vs whatever you're currently using.
Dave: Great post, lots of wonderful info. Thank you! I could not agree more with all your points. We should talk sometime; I'll send you a PM in the new year and we can compare notes....
Great to see some attention given to TADs. I had M1s, and used on them many amps, then Magico Q5s and now back to R1s. The TADs are fantastic in my opinion, but they are very revealing. I've used them with all Spectral/DMA360s, Pass 600, MSB monos and now Constellation monos. Of all these the Constellations are by sound best, very detailed yet warm in color. Fantastic bass. The digital front end has also been very important. Started with Spectral, then MSB, now Berkeley Reference 2. Berkeley sounds amazingly detailed even on redbook CD via Tidal. Introducing Roon and an Audio Alchemy DMP-1 with AES out made a very big difference getting rid of glare while preserving detail. Regarding cables, take a look at what Andrew used internally in the speakers and then decide. For me, simple cables made by Bryston using good connectors Van Damme wire works great.
Tad is only getting stronger. The new ME1 is the most affordable speaker to offer the TAD sound so I expect it to do very well for them.
I bought the R1 not too long ago and I take heart in knowing its a design that has stood the test of time. Im not too keen on spending big money on companies that update their products every 6 months.. a la Magico
I bought the R1 not too long ago and I take heart in knowing its a design that has stood the test of time. Im not too keen on spending big money on companies that update their products every 6 months.. a la Magico
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