Taiko Tana-LPS-Setchi---listening
- Thread starter Mike Lavigne
- Start date
Hi Mike,
I singled out 2 parts from your posts with a specific reason. I am very excited, though not surprised (a little bit though as I'll explain later), you're noticing this, especially this part:
We have spend the last few weeks zooming in on exactly this effect. We think this is the main cause for the other effects I've quoted above as we've singled out this particular aspect, build a lab setup, and we can influence it rather precisely to produce more drama / tension / suspension along with increased authority / impact / jump factor.
Our setup is focusing on dac applications though and here we were thinking we may have found a "cure" for digital playback, but now I'm reading you're experiencing the exact same effect on your NVS, surprise!
A very useful data point though! Anyway this "gap removal" thing turning the music into a more continuous event has been really exiting for us and I'm beyond pleased it's doing it's thing at your place too!
Thank you for taking the time for this thorough evaluation.
As for the Hardpoints, as I've mentioned before in the other thread, the best passive footers we've come across by a large margin. A very good roller bearing implementation and we still use a set from time to time in our workshop system. If time permits we may take some measurements on them again and actually save the data to share.
Mike, can you do me a big favour? Try and describe the qualitative differences of adding the Troy Elite to your system versus adding the Tana.
I don’t mean how it sounds w the Tana in and then the Elite on Trinias. I mean the specific upstick in going to Elite for the first time, and that of going to Tana for the first time.
I’m sure we’re all interested, but I’m particularly intrigued since Entreq has suddenly weaved it’s magic again in my system in the last week, on top of Stacores transforming my sound, but I cannot afford both Stacores AND Troy, and I’ve made strategic decision to go in deep w Stacore.
So, how do these transformative tweaks, Elite and Tana, compare and contrast? Which seems to really dig deepest, remove most veils, max out communication, tone and sheer immersion and enjoyability of music playback?
I’m not looking for a ranking, just how they fit in the grand scheme.
Eg at this point in my system optimisation I can summarise the effects of changes as
Room - the key to everything, releases all the shackles, evens out all the anomalies, removes all the hardness and greyness.
Balanced power and dedicated lines - provides the massively powerful foundation and low end muscularity that everything else springs from.
Cable loom esp power cords - tonal variation and density in spades, timbral accuracy and texture.
Fuses - fixes a few of the frequency shortcomings in each device fitted in to.
Grounding boxes - now doing their thing again, decluttering of lower mids and upper bass, highlighting of spatial cues and ambience.
Pneumatic isolation platforms - massive revealing of natural detail, air, soundstaging, imaging, “realness”.
Of course there’s a lot of crossing over of positives provided, and the synergy is scary where that elusive “last 5%” is on course.
I’m just wondering where Tana and Elite compare at yours, Mike.
I don’t mean how it sounds w the Tana in and then the Elite on Trinias. I mean the specific upstick in going to Elite for the first time, and that of going to Tana for the first time.
I’m sure we’re all interested, but I’m particularly intrigued since Entreq has suddenly weaved it’s magic again in my system in the last week, on top of Stacores transforming my sound, but I cannot afford both Stacores AND Troy, and I’ve made strategic decision to go in deep w Stacore.
So, how do these transformative tweaks, Elite and Tana, compare and contrast? Which seems to really dig deepest, remove most veils, max out communication, tone and sheer immersion and enjoyability of music playback?
I’m not looking for a ranking, just how they fit in the grand scheme.
Eg at this point in my system optimisation I can summarise the effects of changes as
Room - the key to everything, releases all the shackles, evens out all the anomalies, removes all the hardness and greyness.
Balanced power and dedicated lines - provides the massively powerful foundation and low end muscularity that everything else springs from.
Cable loom esp power cords - tonal variation and density in spades, timbral accuracy and texture.
Fuses - fixes a few of the frequency shortcomings in each device fitted in to.
Grounding boxes - now doing their thing again, decluttering of lower mids and upper bass, highlighting of spatial cues and ambience.
Pneumatic isolation platforms - massive revealing of natural detail, air, soundstaging, imaging, “realness”.
Of course there’s a lot of crossing over of positives provided, and the synergy is scary where that elusive “last 5%” is on course.
I’m just wondering where Tana and Elite compare at yours, Mike.
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not sure what you are asking here. i'm buying the Taiko Tana set-up. it's not just 'here'. we have been talking about this it seems like forever. will I keep this exact linear power supply long term? we have not discussed that question. I told them i'm happy as it looks but if they decide to change the aesthetics i'm fine to switch to something else. i'd guess they need to value engineer the whole LPS and the case work to some degree as this particular LPS is 'cost-no-object'. so that part is fuzzy and the focus was to get it to me when they were happy with the performance so I could hear it. and as I sit here I expect to have the Taiko Tana 'upgrade' be done to both my other TS units so i'll have three of them. I cannot see any other path. that was the idea before, but now after hearing it there is really no question.
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Dear Tang,
pot, meet kettle.
should we start counting tt's, and cartridges, and phono stages, and tone arms, and Tripoint boxes? i'm a piker compared to......
someone does have a hidden offshore account.
regards,
Mike
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I could write a book (not a good one, but a long one), or multiple 1000 post threads on the answer to these questions. later, when I have the chance, I will give a decent answer a good try.
Appreciated Mike. I understand that in the context of striving for this final 5% (a figure you kind of submitted as the upstick when installing Elite, which takes heroic efforts to reach), one could ascribe any successful tweaks like the room acoustics, power grid, uber grounding and isolation platforms as being pivotal.
Or all being pivotal, the synergy of the combinations then producing the effects.
Stacores are right at the limit of my affordability since I’m planning on one platform per component (looking at 7 in total), and this precludes any early affordability for Troy, esp Elite, which at one box and ten of Miguel’s top grnd cbls equates to twice my proposed Stacore budget.
All I know from those like Rudolph, and now you, who’ve gone down the Troy/Elite route, is that it’s not just been positive, it’s been transformational/radical (although both of you differ in what %age to ascribe the impvt).
I do believe I’m getting my own revolution in sound quality primarily thru the room, but maxxed out further with changes to power grid, cbls, and now especially Stacores, the latter continuing to astound.
I’d just love to know how radical Elite/Tana have been/are proving to be, and how strong your visceral reaction was/is to both upsticks. I have my eye in the game for an interesting OTT star grounding system (that I’m not at liberty to discuss) which promises to go at least somewhere in Troy territory, which makes my decision to Stacore-out my rig all the easier. But yr thoughts, compare/contrast, on both eagerly awaited.
Or all being pivotal, the synergy of the combinations then producing the effects.
Stacores are right at the limit of my affordability since I’m planning on one platform per component (looking at 7 in total), and this precludes any early affordability for Troy, esp Elite, which at one box and ten of Miguel’s top grnd cbls equates to twice my proposed Stacore budget.
All I know from those like Rudolph, and now you, who’ve gone down the Troy/Elite route, is that it’s not just been positive, it’s been transformational/radical (although both of you differ in what %age to ascribe the impvt).
I do believe I’m getting my own revolution in sound quality primarily thru the room, but maxxed out further with changes to power grid, cbls, and now especially Stacores, the latter continuing to astound.
I’d just love to know how radical Elite/Tana have been/are proving to be, and how strong your visceral reaction was/is to both upsticks. I have my eye in the game for an interesting OTT star grounding system (that I’m not at liberty to discuss) which promises to go at least somewhere in Troy territory, which makes my decision to Stacore-out my rig all the easier. But yr thoughts, compare/contrast, on both eagerly awaited.
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Mike, as I try to understand the improvements you are hearing from the Taiko I have one question for you and one rhetorical question to which none of us knows the answer right now.
1) With the material improvements you are hearing from footers under grounding boxes and DAC and power supplies, and from Panzerholz damping plates, it makes me wonder if maybe your 15" diameter X 4 drivers X 2 channels of huge bass towers is bathing your system in acoustic feedback, and that that is why all of these seemingly small damping and isolation tweaks seem to help so much? And maybe for people with merely conventional woofers in conventional speakers these tweaks would not have such high efficacy?
2) Herzan has always been crystal clear that the TS should be connected to the concrete slab of the floor as rigidly as possible with no intervening compliance, and that the component should be connected to the top of (placed on the top of) the TS as rigidly as possible with no intervening compliance. The Panzerholz layers violate both of these imperatives, yet you are hearing improvements in isolation.
I wonder how Herzan would explain this?
1) With the material improvements you are hearing from footers under grounding boxes and DAC and power supplies, and from Panzerholz damping plates, it makes me wonder if maybe your 15" diameter X 4 drivers X 2 channels of huge bass towers is bathing your system in acoustic feedback, and that that is why all of these seemingly small damping and isolation tweaks seem to help so much? And maybe for people with merely conventional woofers in conventional speakers these tweaks would not have such high efficacy?
2) Herzan has always been crystal clear that the TS should be connected to the concrete slab of the floor as rigidly as possible with no intervening compliance, and that the component should be connected to the top of (placed on the top of) the TS as rigidly as possible with no intervening compliance. The Panzerholz layers violate both of these imperatives, yet you are hearing improvements in isolation.
I wonder how Herzan would explain this?
Ron - excellent questions
Mike does not have booming subwoofer bass, but certainly a good bass delivery does provide the energy for these devices to function. As always YMMV and each part of the chain has its affect and sensitivity to vibrations. That's why we very much operate on the mantra try before you buy
One certainly wants to have minimal compliance between a TS and the room structure. The nice thing about Panzerholz is that its compliance is minimal, and low frequency transmissibility is very high. The panzerholz is certainly harder than any concrete in existence and is an even better material than concrete for a base / floor material supporting a TS.
The same applies between the supported unit and the TS top plate, again Panzerholz works very well
The big additional positive of Panzerholz is that its damping of medium and high frequencies is excellent. So Panzerholz meets the low frequency mechanical coupling requirements, plus it attenuates the mid to high frequencies which the TS can not correct
Mike does not have booming subwoofer bass, but certainly a good bass delivery does provide the energy for these devices to function. As always YMMV and each part of the chain has its affect and sensitivity to vibrations. That's why we very much operate on the mantra try before you buy
One certainly wants to have minimal compliance between a TS and the room structure. The nice thing about Panzerholz is that its compliance is minimal, and low frequency transmissibility is very high. The panzerholz is certainly harder than any concrete in existence and is an even better material than concrete for a base / floor material supporting a TS.
The same applies between the supported unit and the TS top plate, again Panzerholz works very well
The big additional positive of Panzerholz is that its damping of medium and high frequencies is excellent. So Panzerholz meets the low frequency mechanical coupling requirements, plus it attenuates the mid to high frequencies which the TS can not correct
Ron - a further interesting observation and data point is that as we have been deploying these tweaks, improving high frequency resolution, and reducing low frequency disturbances, we have actually significantly reduced the level / volume control on our sub woofers !
Which would tell me that you were over whelming the room with bass waves in the first place, LOL.
Davey, it’s a bit more subtle than that. Each additional layer of tweak I apply, allowed full expression by the really open room acoustic, means a little tailoring of my Zu subs crossovers.
In London I always struggled to get it right. Here, adjusting increments btwn 37-43 Hz makes proper differences, as does level btwn 2.5 to 3.5/10. And each tweak on balance is causing me to drop subs settings down. This is especially the case with the Stacores isolation in tow. A layer of bloat continues to strip away, leaving faster and more agile bass, but still energising the room.
I think this is what the Taiko team are finding with Tana influencing things. For me these changes are subtle but undeniable.
In London I always struggled to get it right. Here, adjusting increments btwn 37-43 Hz makes proper differences, as does level btwn 2.5 to 3.5/10. And each tweak on balance is causing me to drop subs settings down. This is especially the case with the Stacores isolation in tow. A layer of bloat continues to strip away, leaving faster and more agile bass, but still energising the room.
I think this is what the Taiko team are finding with Tana influencing things. For me these changes are subtle but undeniable.
The Tana LPS is offered to owners of Herzan / Table Stable on a stand alone basis, and we can also swap out the OEM 6 mm top plate for a 10 mm + 10 mm Aluminum and Panzerholz sandwich
The Tana LPS is plug compatible with the connector used on the Table Stable / Herzan power supply.
Davey, here is an interesting datapoint
We have a customer with Revel speakers powered by Hypex NC 400, a Tortuga LDR volume control, and a Golden T + A DAC 8 DSD. As we tuned in his system with 3 Setchi's and panzerholz footers, the perceived volume of the bass took a leap, the degree of which surprised us all
Ron - excellent questions
Mike does not have booming subwoofer bass, but certainly a good bass delivery does provide the energy for these devices to function. As always YMMV and each part of the chain has its affect and sensitivity to vibrations. That's why we very much operate on the mantra try before you buy
One certainly wants to have minimal compliance between a TS and the room structure. The nice thing about Panzerholz is that its compliance is minimal, and low frequency transmissibility is very high. The panzerholz is certainly harder than any concrete in existence and is an even better material than concrete for a base / floor material supporting a TS.
The same applies between the supported unit and the TS top plate, again Panzerholz works very well
The big additional positive of Panzerholz is that its damping of medium and high frequencies is excellent. So Panzerholz meets the low frequency mechanical coupling requirements, plus it attenuates the mid to high frequencies which the TS can not correct
My speakers are made of Panzerholz completely and I can confirm that this is an exellent material for this purpose. My speakers are totally free from any resonances. It is so dense that it sinks and you need very special tools to work with it. It is also 20 times or so more exepensive than MDF.
On a personal note; I have never used as few tweaks as I am currently using. Too much tweaking can do the opposite of what one wishes to achieve. I am reading this thread with great interest, but I get a feeling of that it never seems to be enough tweaking and buying equipment of all kinds. Fantastic system you have Mike, and the room! But constant searching after the next big thing or improvement must be exhausting. Ah well, maybe that is part of your journey.
JP
One of the interesting observations over the past year, is that "the law of diminishing returns" seems to have been set aside for time being and at the current state of art . The improvements that we, Mike and others have observing, has not been diminishing but increasing in their magnitude. New levels of transparency are allowing us to hear details and sonic pictures that deliver a sonic experience that is new to us.
jep,
as far as ROI of tweaks, we have another thread I started a couple weeks ago about that. and clearly your current views on tweaks are shared by others here.
and there are degrees of how we view tweaks. there are a few more tweak focused than myself who view tweaks as a fundamental system building block. for me; it's an accent to a sorted out system.
you speak of "buying equipment of all kinds". from my perspective; tweaks reduce that direction, not increase it. tweaks are about getting the most from the pieces you have. I do agree that the music must play a huge role in keeping tweak directions linear. otherwise you get caught up in change for change sake.
my whole approach of building a purpose built room, then finding the optimal set-up of gear-room synergy in that room , and now optimizing each piece of gear inside the room....seems logical and linear. it is an 'all-in' no compromise approach.
we all have our priorities; and aesthetics and elegance can influence our decisions and what lines we want to cross over. or just we are liking what we hear and at that moment not wanting to mess with it.
and occasionally; we hear what a tweak does to make the musical experience better and it gets our juices flowing to get more of that stuff.
for myself; a year ago I was happy with my Herzan TS units, and now Ed and Emile have complicated my life. and I was happy with my A10 U8 footers and my Entreq friend Esotar sent me the Hardpoints (and could have as easily been the CS footers from Steve). and I was happy as things were, and my friend jazdoc asked me to move my Thor grounding cable, I ended up getting another one from Miguel at Tripoint, and then Miguel sold me an Elite.
so I'm not out there obsessing about adding tweaks, but sometimes they seem to find me. at least that is what I tell my wife.
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