Taiko Tana-LPS-Setchi---listening

[microstrip]

Not to stray off topic...while I don’t care for the “active” engagement with my current circumstance and the AS2000, I do wonder why the TT seems to sound better with the AVI units turned on (passive) than with the units turned off (no power). Makes me wonder if I will take a step back going to a plain old rigid steel table.

Does "passive" (with power on) engage any type of blocking system?

 

[ddk]

From what I gather here, ddk, you and perhaps others seem to like some noise in your equipment (I agree about rooms). That says quite a bit.

What kind of noise are we talking about here?

david

 

[caliaripaolo]

as we have come down the road of discovery (with assistance from Taiko), we now see that in stock config active adds noise with it's attenuation of resonance feedback, and it's attenuation performance is not optimal. and the stock aluminum (metal) top plates are also not optimal. I can tell you that adding the Taiko Tana treatments to the stock active units changes this equation dramatically. I have a stock TS-140 and TS-150 as well as Taiko Tana versions of both here now.

owning a TS-140 already you are half the way there. we don't yet know the upside of the NDW ATI units.

also; we know that 'stacking' gear is not optimal. better separate the gear on separate shelves and use good passive for each box not on the active.

sorry but I'm slightly confused now.

1. active adds noise
2. Passive is better than active on "active" table
3. it seems the table start to be resonant

 

[PeterA]

We may be seeing an evolution of new isolation devices as industrial/lab grade products get modified for use in the specialty high end audio field. The venerable old Vibraplanes which I use in my system seem to be improved in the newer competing passive Stacor platforms which address a broader range of frequencies. And now we are reading that the celebrated Herzan active table top platforms show some benefits under some components and that they too can be modified to better perform when addressing the specific needs of audio components. We also have occasional discussions about alternative approaches like clamping, energy drainage and loading down aerospace dampening pads. I think this is an exciting time in audio as the industry and users are exploring these ideas and devices.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

sorry but I'm slightly confused now.

1. active adds noise

1. 
   
   SMPS (stock switch mode power supplies) are noisy and don't perform optimally. so it's adding noise and not linear. the Taiko Tana treatments include a change to a linear power supply. and not all linear power supplies are equal. the Taiko Tana linear power supplies are unique and well built.
   
   

   [*]Passive is better than active on "active" table

   
   passive 'can' be better (than stock active devices in 'active mode') in some ways since it's not adding bad stuff. depends on the particular application trade-offs. can't generalize.
   
   

   [*]it seems the table start to be resonant

   
   ??? not sure what you mean.

 

[rockitman]

Christian,

Can you describe the differences with what you are hearing when the AVI’s have no power on, and when they have power on but not enabled ?

We have observed similar effects with turntables and other electronics, so don’t be bashful in you description ;-)

Best

Ed

The sound is less open, deader sounding.

 

[Steve williams]

IMO what Christian has found is that a table of such mass as the AS 2000 simply does not benefit from active isolation. I just don't get why anyone feels isolating a table of such weight by active means when almost certainly its shear weight is adequate enough

The sagest comment I read came from David yesterday when he suggested that people are searching for a problem when one doesn't exist. Christian is now considering a very heavy metal rack with no active mechanism

 

[Mike Lavigne]

IMO what Christian has found is that a table of such mass as the AS 2000 simply does not benefit from active isolation. I just don't get why anyone feels isolating a table of such weight by active means when almost certainly its shear weight is adequate enough

The sagest comment I read came from David yesterday when he suggested that people are searching for a problem when one doesn't exist. Christian is now considering a very heavy metal rack with no active mechanism

no Steve. you are guessing as to cause and effect. all we know is exactly what Christian has told us. that his particular device causes a certain result.

but I have no illusions that you can see the details involved here. so no reason to discuss it with you.

 

[microstrip]

sorry but I'm slightly confused now.

1. active adds noise
2. Passive is better than active on "active" table
3. it seems the table start to be resonant

We have such a small number of cases and so many variables that any effort to analyze will be confusing. Our very diverse systems will react very differently to isolation/coupling - picking one solution over others is more a question of audiophile faith than anything else.

IMHO the main problem with these devices is the high cost and the extremely limited distribution/circulation of active platforms.

 

[Steve williams]

no Steve. you are guessing as to cause and effect. all we know is exactly what Christian has told us. that his particular device causes a certain result.

but I have no illusions that you can see the details involved here. so no reason to discuss it with you.

perhaps and perhaps not Mike but it will be interesting when you do the A-B-A test with David. Hopefully you'll prove us all wrong Mike but I still believe you're looking for a solution where there is no problem.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

perhaps and perhaps not Mike but it will be interesting when you do the A-B-A test with David. Hopefully you'll prove us all wrong Mike but I still believe you're looking for a solution where there is no problem.

that's fair. we don't exactly know how it will go.

 

[Steve williams]

that's fair. we don't exactly know how it will go.

here's my thoughts Mike

I don't dispute what Taiko has discovered wrt the MF and HF problems fro the SMPS but I also believe what the people at TMC (who are IIRC the largest active shelf manufacturer in the country) who recommended against using an active device under a turntable because the shelf is always in motion as it seeks a neutral position). Although I have no idea how it will shake out I do feel that what Christian experienced was related to that very problem. Bottom line is you might get improvement of the blurring of the mid and highs but one has to wonder if the final arbiter is related to the very issue of the spinning turntable on the active shelf and hence that dull sheen might persist.Its a great experiment Mike and everyone is cheering for you


BTWas not understanding what you understand my only comment Mike is that I spent 5 days at David's house listening to all of his tables as well as learning his philosophy and it was my comments about the AS TT that proclaimed it the best table in his collection. I heard it on a heavy metal shelf. It was killer. IMO there were no problems

 

[rockitman]

I do feel that what Christian experienced was related to that very problem. Bottom line is you might get improvement of the blurring of the mid and highs but one has to wonder if the final arbiter is related to the very issue of the spinning turntable on the active shelf and hence that dull sheen might persist.Its a great experiment Mike and everyone is cheering for you

I'm not on board with the theory the non linear power supply is emitting noise that is responsible for the dulling of the Mid to High frequency ambience I experience with active isolation. I think it is simply a matter of the actuators fighting any vibration they sense, including that from the spinning TT/music. Perhaps I am wrong.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

here's my thoughts Mike

I don't dispute what Taiko has discovered wrt the MF and HF problems fro the SMPS but I also believe what the people at TMC (who are IIRC the largest active shelf manufacturer in the country) who recommended against using an active device under a turntable because the shelf is always in motion as it seeks a neutral position).

active works with turntables. I would agree that not all active works with all turntables. not any new thought there.

your previous post spoke to the high mass of the American Sound as the issue; which the jury is out on at very least. now it's TMC saying turntables don't work; which as a generality we know is not true.

Although I have no idea how it will shake out I do feel that what Christian experienced was related to that very problem.

that problem being 'turntables don't work with active'? not true at all. again, likely true that not all active works with all turntables.

Bottom line is you might get improvement of the blurring of the mid and highs but one has to wonder if the final arbiter is related to the very issue of the spinning turntable on the active shelf and hence that dull sheen might persist.Its a great experiment Mike and everyone is cheering for you

could have fooled me.

BTWas not understanding what you understand my only comment Mike is that I spent 5 days at David's house listening to all of his tables as well as learning his philosophy and it was my comments about the AS TT that proclaimed it the best table in his collection. I heard it on a heavy metal shelf. It was killer. IMO there were no problems

not hearing problems is a far different thing than whether it's optimized. I did not hear problems either at David's and never said I did. active, properly implemented, adds, in degrees, life and information. not that those things were not already there.

the devil, as always, is in the details.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I’m a bit frustrated with where this discussion is going.
Christian, weren’t you one of the big proponents of active under tts in those initial Herzan threads in 2012-2013?
I believe these very criticisms or objections were put then, but there was a certain railroading of the view that Herzan was so uber comprehensive in its effects that a moving platter was dismissed as not an issue.
Indeed I put some of these reservations fwd myself, but the consensus soon formed amongst you and Mike especially, that if it’s good enough for electron scanning microscopes, it’s good enough for top tts.
Maybe those who now have moved on from active need to re read their posts from that period.

 

[Steve williams]

I'm not on board with the theory the non linear power supply is emitting noise that is responsible for the dulling of the Mid to High frequency ambience I experience with active isolation. I think it is simply a matter of the actuators fighting any vibration they sense, including that from the spinning TT/music. Perhaps I am wrong.

I'm pretty certain that was the point I was making

 

[Steve williams]

that problem being 'turntables don't work with active'? not true at all. again, likely true that not all active works with all turntables.

perhaps but we are talking about the AS 2000 and none others.

Are you suggesting that we discount Christian and David's findings as to their comments about the AS2000 on active. As I said before perhaps your idea of optimization will improve the MF and HF but nothing is going to negate the effect of the spinning platter on an active device with the activators always in motion. That is the point that I am trying to make. Pretty simple

 

[Steve williams]

Mike

You’re getting worked up for nothing. Let’s try to discuss pros and cons in a friendly fashion. Surely you must agree that a discussion both ways is healthy. As for reading I’ve read every post in this thread. As for generalities I must disagree. I thought what I was offering was specifics.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike

You’re getting worked up for nothing. Let’s try to discuss pros and cons in a friendly fashion. Surely you must agree that a discussion both ways is healthy. As for reading I’ve read every post in this thread. As for generalities I must disagree. I thought what I was offering was specifics.

after I deleted my post I see you already responded. agree I should move on. we are not on the same wave length.

 

[Steve williams]

Speaking for myself but I am sure others I am most interested in this experiment Mike not to see you fail as you are suggesting but rather to show there is an alternative way for this table specifically an Uber modified Herzan

To summarize
David recommends (and IIRC will be making for his clients and anyone else) a simple heavy metal stand
Christian went active and prefers passive based on simple ABA test
Tang combination of Stacore and heavy metal stand with the table to rest on heavy metal shelf
Ron heavy metal shelf
Mike-Uber modified Herzan

So perhaps we are on different wave lengths but in things like this Im certain all of us here would love to see you succeed.