Taiko Tana-LPS-Setchi---listening

[Steve williams]

Steve,

Yes, that's what our testing and observational data points lead us to conclude

Best

Ed

Then that will be quick to prove and very simple with an A-B-A test

Once Mike has his on the Herzan with your product play some music and then turn off the Herzan and play the same music again. That would quickly dispel any concern wouldn’t you agree.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

split top layer

maybe read this post.

the question is whether the resonance sourced from the AS-2000 itself is essential to the positive aspects of it's performance. and if active defeats that resonance what are the performance consequences. will the better performance of the Taiko Tana approach and the TS design verses the AVI design cause a net gain over an untreated AS-2000?

listening to my dd NVS tt clearly it's a big net gain. does the out board motor and belt play a role in the difference due to the need for the solidity of the motor base? will compensating for the resonance in that motor box remove life from the AS-2000? these are questions going through my mind right now trying to decide to do the Taiko Tana TS-300 for the AS-2000.

we think we have come up with an approach to deal with the AS-2000 motor box resonance which will allow us to tune the top plate of the TS-300. a split top layer; one side panzerholtz for the plinth/platter. the 440 pound plinth/platter is too heavy to mess with, and the plinth is not a source for resonance feedback with the air gap. the other side will be separate with various choices to determine the best degree of compliance needed for the motor box. both sides would be the same thickness and bolted to the same top plate, so alignment and solidity would not be affected. since that motor box is light enough to be movable it will be reasonable to try different materials to find the best combination for optimal performance.

hard to know for sure which approach will end up being best, but logically a more compliant top layer under the motor would transmit less of any sort of rumble or feedback and therefore would reduce any compensation from the TS-300 from self resonance from the AS-2000. so the Taiko Tana TS-300 will be free to do it's best isolating performance for the plinth/platter.

we will think more about it but for now it looks promising.

 

[PeterA]

If sympathetic mechanical vibrations improve a system - to a wow point - you may have a serious problem; if you or others think overdamping can be a problem, look at what Magico is doing and to what effect.

Hi Ack,

I don't quite follow your reasoning here nor am I aware that I might have a "serious problem". I don't know what you mean by "overdamping" nor do I think damping things is bad. I think it all depends. Many audio components seem to be "voiced" to sound a certain way. One might certainly prefer the sound of a component if he alters the natural resonance of the thing, or he may not prefer it. I have been inside over damped rooms and the life of the music is sucked dry. It can become uninvolving and very unnatural sounding. I do see damping material on the undersides of each steel plinth/chassis on my SME turntable, and I see the damping material on the platter surface. And I think the magnesium armtube with natural damping properties of my SME tonearm sounds good, though David here might disagree. Magico does damp its cabinets to great effect but their speakers are not on Isodamp footers. There are different metals in those footers which drain and guide resonances away from the cabinets, at least this is my understanding. So, I am all for resonance control and damping in the right places and right amounts. And how would any of us outside of Magico know if the Magico speaker cabinet is "overdamped"? What would that even mean?

I'm not sure how those Isodamp pieces I tried at your suggestion are working. The sound was not "duller". Their use did not make my system sound "overdamped". Quite the opposite, actually. In fact, I found it more confused and less natural sounding with some artifacts that actually caused me listening fatigue at high volumes. Once removed from the system, everything sound more clean, natural and real. I'm sure it is system dependent and others may have a very different result. I do realize that Magico uses a layer of this stuff in their footers and perhaps also within their cabinets. It is the end result, judged by my listening, that matters to me.

In the end, I'd rather let my ears tell me which is better. Discussing what might or might not be overdamping "sympathetic" vibrations is a futile exercise. If you claim those Isodamp things are overdamping resonances, that is fine with me. I just don't like what they did to the sound of my system. And Al M. and I actually thought resolution suffered with them in the system. A second listener came over this evening and I played some music with him and gave him a blind A/B test without and with the Isodamp under only my phono stage. Afterwords, he said that he thought "B" had lower resolution, softer transients, shorter decays, and that there was less sense of "space". "B" happened to be with the Isodamp pieces stacked and used as footers under my phono stage. These things may work better in your particular application. Thanks for letting me try them out in my system, but they are not for me.

 

[Ron Resnick]

we think we have come up with an approach to deal with the AS-2000 motor box resonance which will allow us to tune the top plate of the TS-300. a split top layer; one side panzerholtz for the plinth/platter. the 440 pound plinth/platter is too heavy to mess with, and the plinth is not a source for resonance feedback with the air gap. the other side will be separate with various choices to determine the best degree of compliance needed for the motor box. both sides would be the same thickness and bolted to the same top plate, so alignment and solidity would not be affected. since that motor box is light enough to be movable it will be reasonable to try different materials to find the best combination for optimal performance.

hard to know for sure which approach will end up being best, but logically a more compliant top layer under the motor would transmit less of any sort of rumble or feedback and therefore would reduce any compensation from the TS-300 from self resonance from the AS-2000. so the Taiko Tana TS-300 will be free to do it's best isolating performance for the plinth/platter.

we will think more about it but for now it looks promising.

The TS-300 was my suggestion weeks ago for an active isolation solution under the AS-2000 -- if I ever wanted to try active isolation sometime in the future. At that time you thought the AVI made more sense for the AS turntable.

I am criticized sometimes for doing too much theorizing and speculative triangulation and extrapolation, and not enough practical listening experiments and direct comparisons. So maybe I am the last person who should be making this comment.

But doesn't it make sense to get the AS turntable in place and spend some time understanding it before considering these multiple levels of tweaks? I just don't see how some of these issues can be figured out a priori.

 

[ack]

I'm not sure how those Isodamp pieces I tried at your suggestion are working. The sound was not "duller". Their use did not make my system sound "overdamped". Quite the opposite, actually. In fact, I found it more confused and less natural sounding with some artifacts that actually caused me listening fatigue at high volumes. Once removed from the system, everything sound more clean, natural and real. I'm sure it is system dependent and others may have a very different result. I do realize that Magico uses a layer of this stuff in their footers and perhaps also within their cabinets. It is the end result, judged by my listening, that matters to me.

You may want to try them again as prescribed, by pressurizing the material - put something heavy on the equipment; that's how they are supposed to be used, and both Magico and I follow that requirement. Without them, you are picking up sympathetic vibrations, and those appear to affect the sound in a subjectively positive way. At the end of the day, they are nothing more than noise. Earlier, you told ddk that he's onto something with respect to overdamping making the sound worse, so it looks like you welcome some noise. So again, look at that Magico has achieved with going fanatic with overdamping - you have marveled at the deadness of the Mpro cabinets and others

 

[ddk]

we think we have come up with an approach to deal with the AS-2000 motor box resonance which will allow us to tune the top plate of the TS-300. a split top layer; one side panzerholtz for the plinth/platter. the 440 pound plinth/platter is too heavy to mess with, and the plinth is not a source for resonance feedback with the air gap. the other side will be separate with various choices to determine the best degree of compliance needed for the motor box. both sides would be the same thickness and bolted to the same top plate, so alignment and solidity would not be affected. since that motor box is light enough to be movable it will be reasonable to try different materials to find the best combination for optimal performance.

hard to know for sure which approach will end up being best, but logically a more compliant top layer under the motor would transmit less of any sort of rumble or feedback and therefore would reduce any compensation from the TS-300 from self resonance from the AS-2000. so the Taiko Tana TS-300 will be free to do it's best isolating performance for the plinth/platter.

we will think more about it but for now it looks promising.

Hi Mike,

If I may suggest, do nothing at this point you’re trying to solve a problem that doesn’t exist, we’ve already dealt with everything in the design of the motor case. Let me remind you of this video, this is the AS2000 in the factory floor with heavy machinery running constantly, you want to talk vibration ? The turntable is sitting on a regular push cart for tools. Please not that the belt position is fixed the motor and the plinth need to be on the same level.


Short of seismic activity there’s nothing for you to worry about,

david


Sent from my iPad

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hi Mike,

If I may suggest, do nothing at this point you’re trying to solve a problem that doesn’t exist, we’ve already dealt with everything in the design of the motor case. Let me remind you of this video, this is the AS2000 in the factory floor with heavy machinery running constantly, you want to talk vibration ? The turntable is sitting on a regular push cart for tools. Please not that the belt position is fixed the motor and the plinth need to be on the same level.

Short of seismic activity there’s nothing for you to worry about,

david

Christian from post #96....

No vibration touching the plinth. The Pabst motor puts off vibration and even more at 45 rpm. You can feel it on the top plate with active off. With active on...the vibration I feel on the top plate goes away mostly. Mid to Hi freq ambiance seems a bit damped in comparison to active off as David and I have noticed.

from Christian's comments i am taking away some degree of resonance from the top of the motor box, but nothing from the plinth.

so trying to sleuth where this 'self noise' is coming from that is getting over-damped with the AVI-NDW23 situation in active mode, it sure appears it's in the motor box, which is where that resonance stops with active engaged.. help me to better interpret Christian's comments if i'm missing something.

would that vibration that is being felt at 45rpm on the 'top plate' (top of motor box? top of rack? Christian does not specify) in passive mode come through the belt, into the platter, across the air gap, and into the plinth? not likely. got to be coming from the motor box.

 

[ddk]

Christian from post #96....

from Christian's comments i am taking away some degree of resonance from the top of the motor box, but nothing from the plinth.

so trying to sleuth where this 'self noise' is coming from that is getting over-damped with the AVI-NDW23 situation in active mode, it sure appears it's in the motor box, which is where that resonance stops with active engaged.. help me to better interpret Christian's comments if i'm missing something.

would that vibration that is being felt at 45rpm on the 'top plate' (top of motor box? top of rack? Christian does not specify) in passive mode come through the belt, into the platter, across the air gap, and into the plinth? not likely. got to be coming from the motor box.

Then some vibration from the motor which is dissipated through the thick heavy stainless case, that's what he feels to the touch. You have additional belt isolation with a 5-6kg stainless steel idler, there's no vibration getting through but just in case we missed something no amount of vibration from that motor will every compare to the heavy machinery of the factory.

david

 

[Mike Lavigne]

The TS-300 was my suggestion weeks ago for an active isolation solution under the AS-2000 -- if I ever wanted to try active isolation sometime in the future. At that time you thought the AVI made more sense for the AS turntable.

I am criticized sometimes for doing too much theorizing and speculative triangulation and extrapolation, and not enough practical listening experiments and direct comparisons. So maybe I am the last person who should be making this comment.

But doesn't it make sense to get the AS turntable in place and spend some time understanding it before considering these multiple levels of tweaks? I just don't see how some of these issues can be figured out a priori.

touche'.

i respect that you needed to get that off your chest. i own the comments I've made. never being wrong means never offering an opinion. mostly i'm the one cashing the checks i write......and I've cashed quite a few.

if the AS-2000 was sitting here in my room now 'nude' on a table like the AS-1000 is at David's, what sort of tweaks could i try? it's a major event to move it. takes planning. better to decide ahead of time what exactly you are going to do with it. and whatever you decide to do will have consequences of some sort. risk-reward is a game we all play.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Then some vibration from the motor which is dissipated through the thick heavy stainless case, that's what he feels to the touch. You have additional belt isolation with a 5-6kg stainless steel idler, there's no vibration getting through but just in case we missed something no amount of vibration from that motor will every compare to the heavy machinery of the factory.

david

totally agree that whatever is getting through is minimal. maybe nothing at all. which takes us back to explaining what the NDW23 AVI active mode is doing that is harmful. Emile and Ed explained it as a combination of the structure of the NDW rack, the AVI casework, and the power supply all compromised sufficiently to yield a net loss of performance compared to the 35db lowering of noise in the under 200hz frequencies. the bad is more bad than the good is good. net loss.

which then takes us to the benefits of the stouter structure of the TS unit instead of the AVI unit, the panzerholtz top plate, and the power supply upgrades of the whole Taiko Tana treatments. as eliminating the bad, and pushing the good considerably forward.

the whole split plinth idea was to counter the possibility that the resonance (if there is any) getting into the shelf surface is beneficial and to minimize the active mode from removing it. if there is none then that is a non issue. but there is no harm having a split plinth as you can just keep it the same on both sides. but it does allow for tuning just in case with zero downsides or cost.

so really the question is whether active will be a benefit to a non suspended turntable?.......this specific non suspended turntable? Christian's experience does not really answer that question one way or another. and i'm left to decide the risk reward of trying it.

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

The TS-300 was my suggestion weeks ago for an active isolation solution under the AS-2000 -- if I ever wanted to try active isolation sometime in the future. At that time you thought the AVI made more sense for the AS turntable.

I am criticized sometimes for doing too much theorizing and speculative triangulation and extrapolation, and not enough practical listening experiments and direct comparisons. So maybe I am the last person who should be making this comment.

But doesn't it make sense to get the AS turntable in place and spend some time understanding it before considering these multiple levels of tweaks? I just don't see how some of these issues can be figured out a priori.

Hi Mike,

If I may suggest, do nothing at this point you’re trying to solve a problem that doesn’t exist, we’ve already dealt with everything in the design of the motor case. Let me remind you of this video, this is the AS2000 in the factory floor with heavy machinery running constantly, you want to talk vibration ? The turntable is sitting on a regular push cart for tools. Please not that the belt position is fixed the motor and the plinth need to be on the same level.


Short of seismic activity there’s nothing for you to worry about,

david


Sent from my iPad

This and that.
My thoughts exactly!
With that much mass and inertia in the platter I don't think a little (probably not even measurable)vibration transmitted through that belt is going to change the sound in any way.

I know you are excited to get the table, hell I am excited that I might get to see it and hear it, but you are redesigning something you do not even have yet. You have all the feed back from the designer and first hand feedback from someone who thought the same thoughts and has since realized the he has spent money where he didn't need to.

This whole obsession with vibration across these forums has been amusing to me on many levels. To me,if you have the financial where with all for this anti-vibration hardware it would be much easier to have your equipment in a separate room and a true listening room with speakers and a chair, problem solved.
If there is no vibration, it doesn't matter what the equipment sits on right?

I have always been a believer in going with the designer/producer/engineers thought first, see their vision and go from there.

Think about what you and I do for a living. They pay those guys a lot of money to design those rigs and does anyone really gain anything by throwing a bunch of after market parts at it, usually not as much as they think they are. I am talking High Performance cars to start with, not modifying the wife's grocery getter.
Your not getting even an AMG or M Series, your getting a freeking La Ferrari a Pagani, a Bugatti or even a Koenigsegg.

Drive the thing first, not much else you are going to do to those cars that will benefit you in any way.

You dont have to change everything, and everything does not have a problem that needs solving.

This of course being posted out of love and respect!

 

[PeterA]

You may want to try them again as prescribed, by pressurizing the material - put something heavy on the equipment; that's how they are supposed to be used, and both Magico and I follow that requirement. Without them, you are picking up sympathetic vibrations, and those appear to affect the sound in a subjectively positive way. At the end of the day, they are nothing more than noise. Earlier, you told ddk that he's onto something with respect to overdamping making the sound worse, so it looks like you welcome some noise. So again, look at that Magico has achieved with going fanatic with overdamping - you have marveled at the deadness of the Mpro cabinets and others

Or I may not. I think this is a bit off topic, so I'll be brief and then move on from this Isodamp discussion. I tried it at your suggestion in the manner you suggested. Then I tried it a different way as you later suggested. I don't have the room in my rack to add some heavy metal plate to load the component. Both times and over the course of four days, I and two friends did not like what it was doing in my system, so I am moving on. I commend you for constantly modifying your gear and always looking for ways to improve the stock products that you buy. I have a different approach toward the hobby and perhaps not your level of perseverance.

I do indeed admire Magico's products, especially Madfloyd's MPro, but frankly, I can not be sure if their cabinets are "overdamped" as you claim or properly damped, as I imagine they claim. I have not read anywhere that Magico refers to their products as "overdamped". Overdamped implies to me a dead sound like the overdamped listening rooms that I have been in. Those are not good for realistic reproduction of music. I did not find the Magico listening room to be overdamped. In my opinion, it is all about finding the right balance and the sound that pleases you.

 

[shakti]

from the technical (or pysical) point of view the resonating system of AS2000 and base is too small to be analysed in isolation.

The „complete“ system should include the standard ground vibrations AS 2000 will see (or not..., I have heavy trucks and a tram in a radius of 100m of my home and can measure this vibrations)

As even a solid house is swinging , the floor of usage is an important point too.
( the floor question was the first question , I was asked from accurion)

In high floors the level of ground vibration can become huge and need a dedicated and different set up.

A listening room has different areas of sonic energy. Is the turntable between the speakers close to the rear wall? Or on the side wall in the middle?

This is a big difference in performance and a big difference for the set up requirements.

A Turntable mostly is on the top of a rack, which is the place with the most vibrations!

If a TT like the AS 2000 starts swinging, this heavy weight will shake the most racks.

So a good starting point would be to have a TT stand which gives the AS 2000 a proper place.Mostly a solid heavy weight stand and a heavy base plate is good as starting point for heavy TT. (very basic requirement), but I still see gear towers with a heavy turntable on top)

Considering the above , a technical requirement specification sheet can be designed and translated into a product spec needed.

Such approach would accept, that some users of AS 2000 just use a heavy solid steel base, some a customized starcore or similar, some still would need an active base for their personal setting requirements.

For example, my personal set up (with trams and heavy trucks arround) likes gear placement with low frequencie absorbation capability

.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

This and that.
My thoughts exactly!
With that much mass and inertia in the platter I don't think a little (probably not even measurable)vibration transmitted through that belt is going to change the sound in any way.

I know you are excited to get the table, hell I am excited that I might get to see it and hear it, but you are redesigning something you do not even have yet. You have all the feed back from the designer and first hand feedback from someone who thought the same thoughts and has since realized the he has spent money where he didn't need to.

This whole obsession with vibration across these forums has been amusing to me on many levels. To me,if you have the financial where with all for this anti-vibration hardware it would be much easier to have your equipment in a separate room and a true listening room with speakers and a chair, problem solved.
If there is no vibration, it doesn't matter what the equipment sits on right?

I have always been a believer in going with the designer/producer/engineers thought first, see their vision and go from there.

Think about what you and I do for a living. They pay those guys a lot of money to design those rigs and does anyone really gain anything by throwing a bunch of after market parts at it, usually not as much as they think they are. I am talking High Performance cars to start with, not modifying the wife's grocery getter.
Your not getting even an AMG or M Series, your getting a freeking La Ferrari a Pagani, a Bugatti or even a Koenigsegg.

Drive the thing first, not much else you are going to do to those cars that will benefit you in any way.

You dont have to change everything, and everything does not have a problem that needs solving.

This of course being posted out of love and respect!

well....er.....i'm not driving my mega-car on the freeway at 55, or even at the local track on track day; it's on the Mulsanne straight at 350kph......which is the context of my system. so while i respect your analogy you missed half of it.....system context and expectation. i'm pushing boundaries. so David's views mean a lot, but they are not my views. i'd rather fail than not try. how good can the AS-2000 sound? we all win if active pushes it farther. i lose if it does not.

i'm not claiming any type of singularity that i'm the only one with this viewpoint.

how many here roll tubes, or change power cords, or add other tweaks. how many manufacturers recommend those tweaks? the logic of leaving it 'stock' since the manufacturer prefers it that way is really not relevant to this hobby. and it's not me.

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

Touche my friend!
I get that completely, my point is you do not really know what the boundaries are until you face them.
Even at my level there is always something that makes a difference and I never stop trying.
And do not think for a second I do not appreciate everything you have done in your room, I have sat it that seat and heard the results, its pretty mind bendingly amazing!
I just wish I had known you sooner and been able to travel the journey and hear the changes over the years and hear the progression.

 

[rockitman]

Not to stray off topic...while I don’t care for the “active” engagement with my current circumstance and the AS2000, I do wonder why the TT seems to sound better with the AVI units turned on (passive) than with the units turned off (no power). Makes me wonder if I will take a step back going to a plain old rigid steel table.

 

[EuroDriver]

Not to stray off topic...while I don’t care for the “active” engagement with my current circumstance and the AS2000, I do wonder why the TT seems to sound better with the AVI units turned on (passive) than with the units turned off (no power). Makes me wonder if I will take a step back going to a plain old rigid steel table.

Christian,

Can you describe the differences with what you are hearing when the AVI’s have no power on, and when they have power on but not enabled ?

We have observed similar effects with turntables and other electronics, so don’t be bashful in you description ;-)

Best

Ed

 

[ack]

Or I may not. I think this is a bit off topic, so I'll be brief and then move on from this Isodamp discussion. I tried it at your suggestion in the manner you suggested. Then I tried it a different way as you later suggested.

Nonsense. I've consistently said these need to be compressed. Therefore, I prescribed their use exactly ONCE. But sure, no need to try again, you are more noise to me than anything else. There is nothing more I hate in these conversations than people twisting and turning things, and this is why your comments regarding equipment usually go right through me.

I do indeed admire Magico's products, especially Madfloyd's MPro, but frankly, I can not be sure if their cabinets are "overdamped" as you claim or properly damped, as I imagine they claim. I have not read anywhere that Magico refers to their products as "overdamped". Overdamped implies to me a dead sound like the overdamped listening rooms that I have been in. Those are not good for realistic reproduction of music. I did not find the Magico listening room to be overdamped. In my opinion, it is all about finding the right balance and the sound that pleases you.

From what I gather here, ddk, you and perhaps others seem to like some noise in your equipment (I agree about rooms). That says quite a bit.

 

[Kingsrule]

Not to stray off topic...while I don’t care for the “active” engagement with my current circumstance and the AS2000, I do wonder why the TT seems to sound better with the AVI units turned on (passive) than with the units turned off (no power). Makes me wonder if I will take a step back going to a plain old rigid steel table.

I find the same with my TS140 and Vivaldi stack. Everything is more layered and distinct in passive mode...

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I find the same with my TS140 and Vivaldi stack. Everything is more layered and distinct in passive mode...

as we have come down the road of discovery (with assistance from Taiko), we now see that in stock config active adds noise with it's attenuation of resonance feedback, and it's attenuation performance is not optimal. and the stock aluminum (metal) top plates are also not optimal. I can tell you that adding the Taiko Tana treatments to the stock active units changes this equation dramatically. I have a stock TS-140 and TS-150 as well as Taiko Tana versions of both here now.

owning a TS-140 already you are half the way there. we don't yet know the upside of the NDW ATI units.

also; we know that 'stacking' gear is not optimal. better separate the gear on separate shelves and use good passive for each box not on the active.