Taiko Tana-LPS-Setchi---listening

[PeterA]

Peter, shouldn’t we just take David’s word, and Christian’s first hand experience, for what it is?
That is, that active is not suited to the AS-2000.

Yes, I think we should. But did you not write above that it seems to be system dependent. You now seem to want to make a declaration that active isolation is not suited to the AS2000 implying in all cases. I'm confused by your statements. Furthermore, if I understand this correctly, EuroDriver seems to be saying that it is the specific implementation of the AVI table that Christian ordered that is the issue and not active isolation in general. I am just asking questions to better understand why certain conclusions have been reached.

Sure, I could just take David's word for it. I have no reason to doubt his and Christian's observations and what they heard. Christian asked Mike an interesting question in post #70.

Looks like some nice stuff Mike. It would be interesting to hear your observations with both active on and off (herzan still powered up). I’m inclined to use active for power supplies only. I think active works against the music with some analog playback devices as I have experienced. The music is pleasant but more homogenized in a sense...it loses some of that raw realism.

 

[PeterA]

Congratulations on the new platforms, Mike. They look great in your system and it's interesting to read about the improvements they provide.

 

[PeterA]

We’ll be fascinated to read about it. For all the time I’ve read David’s comments, he doesn’t mince words or easily change his mind. He’s beyond adamant the AS is not suited to being on an active platform, and since he’ll be in the room with Mike when the install happens, we’ll hear two takes on Tana under the AS.

Marc, Are you sure the Tana will support the AS2000? This is not my impression.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

If the vibrations are from the ground, then the sensors and actuators are attenuating them and in theory the top surface should be motion free, and the table should then not be effected. It should "think" that it is on a stable, motionless platform. Obviously this is not the case, because you hear a decrease in sound quality in active mode.

Peter,

what my own experiences with these two Taiko Tana units are showing me is how significant both the power supplies, and the details of support structure and materials characteristics, are for the result. 'active' mode does something positive, but that 'something' get's lost in the noise of structure borne distortion and power supply distortion and yields a muddled sound. so good 'passive' nets out a better result in Christian's situation.

Mike, will you be exploring if there is a TS version large enough to try with the Taiko Tana modifications that would fit under the AS2000?

at this point I expect that i'll source a TS-300 from Herzan with a tapped aluminum top plate and without any power supply, just the plug. then i'll get the 10mm panzerholtz top layer to attach to the TS-300 top plate, and get the Taiko Tana LPS and plinth. so it will be identical to my two Taiko Tana units in my room other than the size. I'm super impressed by what I'm hearing with the suspension-less NVS tt. no reason that the positive results should not scale.

the question remains what table I use as a support.

Marc, Are you sure the Tana will support the AS2000? This is not my impression.

the TS-300 has a 300 kg weight capacity (661 pounds) so I'm good on that issue. we are talking about possibly a massive wood legged table as wood might be better and less resonate than steel. but this is an open question right now. I could get David's table.

 

[rockitman]

Christian, when you turn on the active circuit with no music playing but the turntable spinning, I assume you see the unit's lights blinking indicating that the sensors are responding to vibrations. From where do you think those vibrations originate? If the music is off, they can't be airborn vibrations from the speaker, so either they are coming down from the AS2000's spinning platter, the motor, or some combination, OR, they are coming up from the ground, through the stand and into the AVI mechanism, OR a combination of both. I would be surprised if vibrations generated within the AS2000 or its motor would find their way down to the top surface of your active platform, especially since the platter is on an airbearing.

If the vibrations are from the ground, then the sensors and actuators are attenuating them and in theory the top surface should be motion free, and the table should then not be effected. It should "think" that it is on a stable, motionless platform. Obviously this is not the case, because you hear a decrease in sound quality in active mode.

The vibration is indeed coming from the centrifugal forces generated by the spinning platter and drive motor.

 

[EuroDriver]

The vibration is indeed coming from the centrifugal forces generated by the spinning platter and drive motor.

Christian,

Just to confirm, you get more blinking of the lights when the turn table spinning, than when the turntable is stationary?

Best Regards

Edward

 

[Mike Lavigne]

The vibration is indeed coming from the centrifugal forces generated by the spinning platter and drive motor.

when you place you hand on the AS-2000 plinth with the platter turning, do you feel steady vibration? and does it change whether the AVI is in active or passive mode?

or is there no perceptible vibration (from your touch)?

 

[rockitman]

Christian,

Just to confirm, you get more blinking of the lights when the turn table spinning, than when the turntable is stationary?

Best Regards

Edward

Edward,

There are no lights indicating vibration when the platter is stationary. When spinning..approx. 2 to 3 of the bottom red lights on the controller stay lit. When active is engaged, no lights are lit.

 

[rockitman]

when you place you hand on the AS-2000 plinth with the platter turning, do you feel steady vibration? and does it change whether the AVI is in active or passive mode?

or is there no perceptible vibration (from your touch)?

No. You can't feel anything through the plinth. You can even hit the plinth as hard as you can with a knuckle while playing a record and no sound is heard through the speakers.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

No. You can't feel anything through the plinth. You can even hit the plinth as hard as you can with a knuckle while playing a record and no sound is heard through the speakers.

it might be interesting to place some sort of instrument on the plinth to see if the platter is feeding any energy to the plinth. where I'm going with this is that I doubt that the AVI in active mode is suffering from AS-2000 sourced resonance, unless it's from the motor box. based on what Ed and Emile have said the issues are related to power supply, AVI casework and rack structure issues. solve those issues and active should work with the AS-2000. and the TS-300 with the Taiko Tana treatment does solve those issues.

OTOH if the AS-2000 itself is generating the resonance then David could be right. active might not work, since you would not want to dampen the 'life' from the AS-2000. 'active' should allow more energy to be released, not dampen it.

an interesting phenomena last night with the Taiko Tana on my NVS is that at the same volume levels showing on my preamp readout, peak watt readouts on my dart mono blocks increased 33% to 50%. I played my reference tracks at my reference levels and much more energy is being projected. much of that increase likely was an improvement in focus and reduction in smear. the moments are shorter but more intense. more real. the music escaped the reproduction process.

that is what I'm talking about that active should do.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . an interesting phenomena last night with the Taiko Tana on my NVS is that at the same volume levels showing on my preamp readout, peak watt readouts on my dart mono blocks increased 33% to 50%. I played my reference tracks at my reference levels and much more energy is being projected. much of that increase likely was an improvement in focus and reduction in smear. . . .

Hmmm. Maybe I am not understanding you.

How can a reduction in "smear," which I think you consider to be a type of distortion, increase actual energy? I can understand your "improvement in focus" and "reduction in smear" as an untangling of musical information or as an unmasking of musical information, but I do not understand how that could result in an increase in transmitted energy (i.e., in SPL)?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hmmm. Maybe I am not understanding you.

How can a reduction in "smear," which I think you consider to be a type of distortion, increase actual energy? I can understand your "improvement in focus" and "reduction in smear" as an untangling of musical information or as an unmasking of musical information, but I do not understand how that could result in an increase in transmitted energy (i.e., in SPL)?

smear = blunt. you take an actual thing/event and reduce the peak and spread the information and energy out over time. and yes; once you hear the passage without the smear/blunting you do view that previous experience as distorted. and the new reference as correct (until you hear it even better).

I cannot exactly say how peak watts are measured in the darTZeel 458 mono blocks's. but I assume that the duration of the peak is not measured, just the maximum moment. so if i'm used to seeing 90-130 watt peaks in a particular passage, and I see 140-200 watt peaks, and it's the same passage, the same cartridge and gain setting on the phono stage.......that i'm getting considerably greater energy in a more focused moment. instead of spreading out that energy over a longer time (in milliseconds) and having lower peaks, that similar energy is now over a shorter time but higher in energy. i'm not hearing 50% more volume, but I am hearing more dynamic life, projected energy and focus. and that more finely rendered moment has more 'peak' energy. more pop and snap.

at this point I view this experience as a data point, and anecdotal in nature. I don't want to claim any new thing. I was startled last night when I noticed the read-out on the dart mono's. I've been playing these cuts and watching those numbers for years (but relying on my memory for the numbers.....nothing scientific here). so I need to spend more time with this. but I had never seen anything like that 'apparent' delta before in any change I made.

and btw; it's sounds better tonight than this morning or last night; it's been on now since last night. Ed said that the power supply only had 30 hours on it and it took 3 days to break in. and it was just shipped 7000 miles in 5 days so there is also the settling.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you, Mike.

I am planning to order my TS-140 without the Herzan power supply so I can use the Taiko version.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Thank you, Mike.

I am planning to order my TS-140 without the Herzan power supply so I can use the Taiko version.

order it with an aluminum top plate tapped to accept the panzerholtz top layer and you will be good to go. contact Taiko for the exact specs. you won't have to use the panzerholtz top layer; but once you try it you will want to use it.

 

[Ron Resnick]

order it with an aluminum top plate tapped to accept the panzerholtz top layer and you will be good to go. contact Taiko for the exact specs. you won't have to use the panzerholtz top layer; but once you try it you will want to use it.

Dear Mike,

Thank you for the suggestion.

I am comfortable ordering the Taiko outboard power supply without hearing it on the basis of the research Taiko has performed comparing different linear power supply designs to the stock Herzan outboard linear power supply. But I don't think I'm comfortable ordering the panzerholz top without some kind of actual comparison with the Io amplification unit.

Is there any reason to believe a priori that the sound of all tube phono preamps will be improved by placing the panzerholz layer between the Herzan and a tube phono stage? I don't think we can go that far at this point -- or at least I cannot.

 

[rockitman]

when you place you hand on the AS-2000 plinth with the platter turning, do you feel steady vibration? and does it change whether the AVI is in active or passive mode?

or is there no perceptible vibration (from your touch)?

No vibration touching the plinth. The Pabst motor puts off vibration and even more at 45 rpm. You can feel it on the top plate with active off. With active on...the vibration I feel on the top plate goes away mostly. Mid to Hi freq ambiance seems a bit damped in comparison to active off as David and I have noticed.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Dear Mike,

Thank you for the suggestion.

I am comfortable ordering the Taiko outboard power supply without hearing it on the basis of the research Taiko has performed comparing different linear power supply designs to the stock Herzan outboard linear power supply. But I don't think I'm comfortable ordering the panzerholz top without some kind of actual comparison with the Io amplification unit.

Is there any reason to believe a priori that the sound of all tube phono preamps will be improved by placing the panzerholz layer between the Herzan and a tube phono stage? I don't think we can go that far at this point -- or at least I cannot.

all i'm suggesting is to order the TS-140 with tapped holes. it's a little extra, but much less hassle than getting that top plate retro fitted later when you discover it's clearly better with the panzerholtz top layer. if Taiko is credible about the LPS units, then they are also credible about the panzerholtz. the LPS is built with panzerholtz and it sits on a panzerholtz plinth.

or not.

my guess is that anything with tubes will be in love with the full Taiko Tana treatment......and the more tubes.....the more love. maybe the only thing in your situ is the whole separate room thing, which could reduce the environmental effects.....possibly.

ask Taiko directly about it and get their feedback about the effect. I've not heard it without that top layer......yet. I know Ed and Emile did months and months of testing to find the optimal formula for best performance. my ears tell me they nailed it.

later (after I deliver my beloved NVS to it's new owner) I will be trying my stock TS-140 along with the Taiko Tana TS-140 under my darTZeel 458 mono blocks. I will convert my stock TS-140 to the direct out plug for the power supply, then move my Taiko power supply from my TS-150 Taiko Tana unit to the stock TS-140. but there will still be a difference as the stock TS-140 won't have the 10mm panzerholtz top plate (or the 40mm panzerholtz plinth). so side to side there will be a difference in levels of isolation performance. big? small? we will see.

I want to find out just how much extra performance supercharged active isolation can boost my dart mono's. this could be really big. i'm sort of afraid to hear what it does.

 

[PeterA]

I want to find out just how much extra performance supercharged active isolation can boost my dart mono's. this could be really big. i'm sort of afraid to hear what it does.

I would not be surprised it you notice a big improvement under the amps. I did with the Vibraplanes under my Pass mono's, particularly in the bass articulation and extension.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I would not be surprised it you notice a big improvement under the amps. I did with the Vibraplanes under my Pass mono's, particularly in the bass articulation and extension.

neither will I be surprised, as I sit here listening to what this is doing for my turntable.

how does one improve what are arguably the best sounding solid state amps out there? maybe like this. the mind boggles. but in the context of uber amps, and even uber racks.....the investment is not out of line. you can make a case it's cost effective in a way. and if this makes a significant improvement in these amps.........

 

[PeterA]

neither will I be surprised, as I sit here listening to what this is doing for my turntable.

how does one improve what are arguably the best sounding solid state amps out there? maybe like this. the mind boggles. but in the context of uber amps, and even uber racks.....the investment is not out of line. you can make a case it's cost effective in a way. and if this makes a significant improvement in these amps.........

Mike, once you have exhausted your search for SOTA components, SOTA isolation, grounding devices, power delivery, and room development, what is left? You seem close to reaching a point where there is nothing more to buy or to upgrade. Have you contemplated what the next few years might bring to your system development? Given your interest in exploration and sharing your progress, could you be content to just enjoy and listen having reached the end of your journey? Or are you confident that something will come along and be the next game changing product to capture your interest?