TAS review Berning 211/845 amplifier

[bonzo75]

Mike, don't sell yourself short, your description was spot on! Most tube amps do 3D well, but only for simple stuff, like vocals or two/three instruments at the most. The darTZeel excels at transporting you to the VENUE, with gobs of ambient information, and I believe it's because the darTs have some of the best high frequency extension in the business!

I did hear those Bernings, with the floorstanding Kaiser speakers, and while they are special indeed, I felt the bass was a little loose and uncontrolled. On the same Kaisers, for instance, I thought the Kondo (Audio Note JP) stuff much better.

I totally get Mike's Dart Berning perspective since he has head them both in his system. I really don't think Berning at a show vs kondo (probably heard at a show in another system) is a valid compare, that's all.

FWIW, I have suggested Ron to go SS, or if he wants to look at Berning, at the Quadrature

 

[cjfrbw]

The Berning amps are certainly interesting topology. I would think the class D type switching power supply, the abundant use of transistors AND transformers would not really make it an OTL type at all except for whatever the tubes are doing, which seems to be a different role than conventional amplification (250Khz carrier amp?). Maybe "Hybrid Frequency Shifting" amplifier with switching power supply. It is an elaborate electronic way to get the impedance down without the traditional iron.

Anyway, I would think any of the above traits would make traditional audiophiles from either SS or OTL/SET camps a little berzerker.

 

[bonzo75]

The 230 and the Quads are called ZOTLs

 

[Sablon Audio]

The 230 and the Quads are called ZOTLs

ZOTL is an acronym for the circuit used in all his products - http://davidberning.com/technology

 

[Ron Resnick]

Mike L, Have you ever had Atma-Sphere OTLs in your system?

Has anyone ever compared the Berning 211/845 to any of the Atma-Sphere OTL amplifiers?

 

[morricab]

The Berning amps are certainly interesting topology. I would think the class D type switching power supply, the abundant use of transistors AND transformers would not really make it an OTL type at all except for whatever the tubes are doing, which seems to be a different role than conventional amplification (250Khz carrier amp?). Maybe "Hybrid Frequency Shifting" amplifier with switching power supply. It is an elaborate electronic way to get the impedance down without the traditional iron.

Anyway, I would think any of the above traits would make traditional audiophiles from either SS or OTL/SET camps a little berzerker.

Still, I am very curious what all that does to impact the final sound. Whether the technology is audible here or not is the question I have because if it is then it is unlikely to be even remotely "Euphonic"...if you know what I mean...

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike L, Have you ever had Atma-Sphere OTLs in your system?

Has anyone ever compared the Berning 211/845 to any of the Atma-Sphere OTL amplifiers?

yes. back in 2001 I had a pair of Atma-Sphere MA2 Mk2's in my system for 2 weeks which I liked a lot (although my wife thought they were ugly) which I had borrowed from my friend Jonathan. i had been talking to Jonathan about them that i might want to buy them. (at that time i was waiting for my Kharma Exquisites to arrive). he told me he had some amplifiers in his room i might even like better. so i drove the MA2's back to his home in Portland, and then walked in to see the Tenor 75 watt OTL's sitting there.

we proceeded to compare the 2 amps in Jonathan's room and while we both liked the Atma-Sphere we loved the musical pull of the Tenor's......i took the Tenor's back to my room with me, and eventually bought my own and my love affair with the Tenors began (and has never stopped really.....as it morphed into the darts).

i still like any Atma-Sphere amplifier......they do nothing wrong and are solid great sounding amps, and the Tenor's had their design issues. but in direct comparison the Atma-Sphere was relatively dry sounding and lacked the unique 'sparkle' and fire and involvement of the mid-range of the Tenor (the Tenor's were never colored or dark, just sweet and alive). OTOH the MA2's and their more current versions are much more flexible with various speakers.

the enemy of the very good is the wonderful......or something like that.

the next obvious question.....how do the Berning 211/845 compare to both?

likely closer to the Tenor's based on my aural memory. sweeter and more involving than the Atma-Sphere's. but much less capable of controlling a speaker than the big Atma's. the 211/845's are not candidates for my MM7's in my room, whereas the big Atma's likely could do it quite well i would expect.

my big darts are also closer to how I recall the Tenor OTL's sounding than the big Atma's, and they have zero issues controlling a speaker. although they do cost a few dollars.....but the dart 108's, or a pair of 108's (which I loved on VR9SE's), are an alternative.....if you can get by no glowing tubes to look at.

 

[bonzo75]

Lampi => Tenor 75 OTL => horns - apparently the Tenors have a great inbuilt volume control.

Just need to confirm they will work on the horns. But then all my components will be dream components interacting well together, simple, and relatively low cost.

 

[microstrip]

yes. back in 2001 I had a pair of Atma-Sphere MA2 Mk2's in my system for 2 weeks which I liked a lot (although my wife thought they were ugly) which I had borrowed from my friend Jonathan.(...)

Mike,
Just to remember that since 2001 the Ma2 mk2 had six revisions, some of them very significant in terms of sound quality. What preamplifier were you using at that time?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike,
Just to remember that since 2001 the Ma2 mk2 had six revisions, some of them very significant in terms of sound quality. What preamplifier were you using at that time?

agree completely. but I've listened to the Atma-sphere's (not always the MA2 versions) at likely 2 shows a years since then too....and always enjoyed them. but they have never 'grabbed' me and captured me. I've recommended them many times. and think they have excellent build quality and Ralph takes great care of his customers.

as far as my preamp at that time, the Tenors were integrated, and I also had the Mark Levinson #32 Reference. so I would have likely used the #32 for both. as I recall Jonathan had the top level Atma-Sphere preamp when we listened at his house. later after I bought my own Tenors, I did find I preferred the passive volume of the integrated to the #32. but when I compared them both initially I used the #32......which was a completely differentially balanced circuit.

this is a matter of the Tenor OTL's being maybe the best sounding tube amp I've ever heard, it's not a matter of dissing the Atma-Sphere's. Ron asked a direct question, and I answered it the best I could.

 

[jep123]

It is always a pleasure to read your posts Mike. Have you ever listened to Absolare, their push pull monoblocks might be something to consider if you ever should go for tubes again? But I guess you have found your dream amps in the Darts, I can understand you!

I am using the Absolare Integrated Signature edition, a marvelous amplifier imo with SET qualities and real power.

JP

 

[microstrip]

Lampi => Tenor 75 OTL => horns - apparently the Tenors have a great inbuilt volume control.

Just need to confirm they will work on the horns. But then all my components will be dream components interacting well together, simple, and relatively low cost.

Do you know if the Tenor 75 OTL is a current model?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Do you know if the Tenor 75 OTL is a current model?

as I recall from observing a thread exchange a month or so ago between Bonzo and one of their dealer/distributors is that they have some stock of new Tenor 75 watt OTL's; however, it was not clear that it is still being manufactured as an ongoing model.

 

[bonzo75]

Do you know if the Tenor 75 OTL is a current model?

It's not. That blow up thing is the only issue.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

It's not. That blow up thing is the only issue.

that blow up thing....there is that.

 

[bonzo75]

as I recall from observing a thread exchange a month or so ago between Bonzo and one of their dealer/distributors is that they have some stock of new Tenor 75 watt OTL's; however, it was not clear that it is still being manufactured as an ongoing model.

The Italian distributor of boulder and spectral and viva has an old Tenor 75 in stock listed at 6500 euro.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

The Italian distributor of boulder and spectral and viva has an old Tenor 75 in stock listed at 6500 euro.

buy them (the pair of Tenor 75 watt OTL's), and then buy a few extra drivers for your speakers, and a fire extinguisher....and you are good to go.

 

[bonzo75]

buy them (the pair of Tenor 75 watt OTL's), and then buy a few extra drivers for your speakers, and a fire extinguisher....and you are good to go.

We Indians have 33000 Gods. One will protect me

 

[Ron Resnick]

yes. back in 2001 I had a pair of Atma-Sphere MA2 Mk2's in my system for 2 weeks which I liked a lot (although my wife thought they were ugly) which I had borrowed from my friend Jonathan. i had been talking to Jonathan about them that i might want to buy them. (at that time i was waiting for my Kharma Exquisites to arrive). he told me he had some amplifiers in his room i might even like better. so i drove the MA2's back to his home in Portland, and then walked in to see the Tenor 75 watt OTL's sitting there.

we proceeded to compare the 2 amps in Jonathan's room and while we both liked the Atma-Sphere we loved the musical pull of the Tenor's......i took the Tenor's back to my room with me, and eventually bought my own and my love affair with the Tenors began (and has never stopped really.....as it morphed into the darts).

i still like any Atma-Sphere amplifier......they do nothing wrong and are solid great sounding amps, and the Tenor's had their design issues. but in direct comparison the Atma-Sphere was relatively dry sounding and lacked the unique 'sparkle' and fire and involvement of the mid-range of the Tenor (the Tenor's were never colored or dark, just sweet and alive). OTOH the MA2's and their more current versions are much more flexible with various speakers.

the enemy of the very good is the wonderful......or something like that.

the next obvious question.....how do the Berning 211/845 compare to both?

likely closer to the Tenor's based on my aural memory. sweeter and more involving than the Atma-Sphere's. but much less capable of controlling a speaker than the big Atma's. the 211/845's are not candidates for my MM7's in my room, whereas the big Atma's likely could do it quite well i would expect.

my big darts are also closer to how I recall the Tenor OTL's sounding than the big Atma's, and they have zero issues controlling a speaker. although they do cost a few dollars.....but the dart 108's, or a pair of 108's (which I loved on VR9SE's), are an alternative.....if you can get by no glowing tubes to look at.

Mike, Thank you very much for your detailed and thoughtful reply. Thank you, also, for anticipating my next question, and for answering that one as well!

Your experiences are very helpful and informative!

 

[bonzo75]

Mike, Thank you very much for your detailed and thoughtful reply. Thank you, also, for anticipating my next question, and for answering that one as well!

Your experiences are very helpful and informative!

Ron, after you get your speakers, you should compare your VTL amps to Vitus, Dartzeel, and Berning Quad Zs. This is especially for your tastes in midrange. If you still prefer the VTLs, you can then go back to auditioning VACs, but a lot of tube lovers have moved to these. And are moving to CH Precision - so add that to your audition list.