Ron, I am not trying to direct you in another direction. Just wanted to be sure that you remember that the Genesis set up is being played with (only) 30 watts. And yes, my G 1.1 crossover was completely modified using only silver Duelund components but this did not change the sensitivity of the loudspeaker system. Of course a flat impedance curve really helps.
TAS review Berning 211/845 amplifier
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Ron, I am not trying to direct you in another direction. Just wanted to be sure that you remember that the Genesis set up is being played with (only) 30 watts. And yes, my G 1.1 crossover was completely modified using only silver Duelund components but this did not change the sensitivity of the loudspeaker system. Of course a flat impedance curve really helps.
I think you will be shocked by the heat generation...even compared ot your VTLs. Also, do not assume more power sounds better...
Since the ribbon is a line source the drop with distance will be much less than a point source speaker. At 89db, you can think more like a 92db conventional speaker. Also, the impedance will be nearly flat so that means almost no frequency variations due to impedance interactions.
I measured only about 1db drop from the front of my Acoustats to the sitting position about 3.5 meters away.
I am sure that this sounds very good indeed! Why, if I may ask, did you go with the push/pull variant and not the SET variant? Power?
Hello Morricab,
I remember it was a really difficult decision to choose between the push pull or single ended version of the Kondo Gakuoh amps. The UK Kondo distributor, Kevin of Definitive Audio, preferred (at least at that time) the pp version to the se version and I was not sure if only 20 se watts could drive the midrange towers of my G 1.1. loudspeakers properly. Given this uncertainty I opted for the 30 pp watts. Never regretted it because it is a mighty fine pp amp and in my view it has enough power to drive the G 1.1 (and furthermore I am using the se version with my high efficient Tidal LA loudspeakers).
Btw, the my father played for many years with the Acoustats 2.2 (still has them although he plays very little lately).
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Ah, so you have the SE versions of the Gakuoh as well? Can I ask you to try them out on the Genesis and see how you like that vs. the PP models? Maybe 20 watts is skating close to the edge of what works but maybe not.
Ah, so you have the SE versions of the Gakuoh as well? Can I ask you to try them out on the Genesis and see how you like that vs. the PP models? Maybe 20 watts is skating close to the edge of what works but maybe not.
For the time being that is not possible because my G 1.1 system is not up and running at the moment.
Has anyone tried the Berning 211/845 mono's with Magico M3's? I also have Q-Sub 15's that handle everything below 100 Hz, so not worried about Harley's comments regarding their bass slam. I know Harley auditioned them with Q7's but that speakers is about 3dB more sensitive than the M3.
Karl
Karl
Cmarin tried them with Q7 or S7 (can't remember). He decided to go with vac 450. Contact him for more details, he is both here and on audioshark though not very active I think.
I personally would not consider 60 watt amplifiers for a 91dB sensitivity speaker with a reputation for being somewhat hard to drive unless I listened primarily or exclusively to non-demanding music. I totally get the desire for SET/OTL, but maybe the Quadrature Z would be a better choice?
a few years back I had the Berning 211/845 on my 97db 7ohm Evolution Acoustics MM7's for a weekend. did many great things, but could not really fully control the speaker in my large room. and maybe part of the problem is the context of the 'uber' dart 458's and what they could do in my room when directly compared.
I would be very skeptical on a 91db speaker unless it's a small room.
OTOH it's one of my favorite tube amplifiers and exceptionally linear and detailed. so mated with the right speaker in the right room a winner. likely ideal for horns and I know that is it's frequent pairing.
Thanks for the feedback. I am hopeful that because I have my M3 crossed over fairly high (110Hz) and QSubs with their own amps, that the Berning won't be too stressed driving the M3. My room is not huge - 14x22x8.5 and is well tuned from an absorbtion/diffusion standpoint. Amps will be here Sunday, so we'll see. The only reason I'm bringing them in is that a friend of mine brought over some LTA ZOTL 40's that were bridged and I couldn't believe how transparent and detailed they were in the treble compared to my Constellation Centaurs. I was hearing small, hand-held percussion on them that the Constellations just gloss over or hide in the background. They didn't handle the low-end however and I had to play them with my preamp up so high that I was getting a lot of rumble when playing LPs. I'm hopeful that the 211/845s will maintain the clarity in the treble without exhibiting the same flaws in the bass. I'll know soon.
Might i interrupt and ask about the your 2 QSub15s? I have to try to steal the opportunity to ask because there are so few people who seem to own them, let alone 2!
1. What happens when you turn on 1 QSub vs none?
2. What happens when you turn on 2 QSubs vs 1?
3. Curious as to whether you find in comparison to other subs you might have tried if/how it 'blows away' other subs...it ought to given the designer, build quality and sheer scale of the entire thing
Thanks for any insight! Enjoy.
How do you perform the crossover functionality; do you use an outboard crossover to integrate the M3s with the subs?
LL21,
It’s very hard to give you that comparison. I got the subs and speakers at the same time, so they were installed and setup together. My room is a converted bedroom, so it isn’t huge - 13x20x8.5. Upon placing the speakers and before the subs, it was immediately apparent that we were dealing with some major room modes causing spikes and dips below 125 Hz. To deal with this, we ended up installing an analog crossover at 110Hz. The crossover also has some custom analog filters to help with the spikes. Once we got the speakers placed and with as smooth a curve as possible we moved the subs around to fill in the dips. There is still a dip at 25Hz that we weren’t fully able to correct but the rest of the bass band has a fairly flat response curve. I think the advantage to the subs is 1) flexibility - you can place them in the best spot for bass in your room, which is almost never where the main speakers are going to sound their best, 2) power - with their own 1500w amps, these things can handle whatever you throw at them and remain clean, tight, and dynamic, and 3) you take some heavy lifting off the main speakers and amps, which gives them more headroom to deal with the rest of the music.
So, with this setup, I can and have turned off the subs and, of course, you lose almost all the low end. I haven’t tried 1 vs 2. I think it might depend on the recording and how the bass is mixed. In a room of my size, I probably could have gotten away with 1.
by the way, the Berning mono’s are here and I will be setting them up today. Will report back later.
It’s very hard to give you that comparison. I got the subs and speakers at the same time, so they were installed and setup together. My room is a converted bedroom, so it isn’t huge - 13x20x8.5. Upon placing the speakers and before the subs, it was immediately apparent that we were dealing with some major room modes causing spikes and dips below 125 Hz. To deal with this, we ended up installing an analog crossover at 110Hz. The crossover also has some custom analog filters to help with the spikes. Once we got the speakers placed and with as smooth a curve as possible we moved the subs around to fill in the dips. There is still a dip at 25Hz that we weren’t fully able to correct but the rest of the bass band has a fairly flat response curve. I think the advantage to the subs is 1) flexibility - you can place them in the best spot for bass in your room, which is almost never where the main speakers are going to sound their best, 2) power - with their own 1500w amps, these things can handle whatever you throw at them and remain clean, tight, and dynamic, and 3) you take some heavy lifting off the main speakers and amps, which gives them more headroom to deal with the rest of the music.
So, with this setup, I can and have turned off the subs and, of course, you lose almost all the low end. I haven’t tried 1 vs 2. I think it might depend on the recording and how the bass is mixed. In a room of my size, I probably could have gotten away with 1.
by the way, the Berning mono’s are here and I will be setting them up today. Will report back later.
Thanks! Just curious as bass freak, it is nice to hear about such SOTA pieces. Look forward to hearing about the Bernings.
I have a Marchand tube crossover with outboard power supply. The crossovers themselves were determined through measurement and using an outboard DSP to determine what worked best in terms of crossover and filters. We then had Marchand custom build the crossover to those specs. I also use the built-in LPF that is part of the DSP function in the Q-Subs.
Well, I installed the amps yesterday. Rick Brown from Hi Fi One had already burned them in, so they sounded great to me out of the box. These amps are even more resolving and transparent that the ZOTL 40's which got me on this path in the first place. What they also have over the 40's is a lot more power and low end control. A very sweet midrange for both male and female voices. Classical quartets sound like they are live and in the room. Digital or LP, it didn't matter, a violin sounds like a violin, a cello like a cello, and a viola like a viola. Jazz was even better with horns lifelike and dynamic, drum kit with sharp transients on snare and cymbals, piano sounding just right, and the double bass getting down and dirty in a good way. Power and control of the low end was never an issue. These amps handled everything I through at them. E Power Biggs on pipe organ, Boz Skagg's "Thanks To You", and even the Decca 1812 Overture. The 845's together with the Q-Subs just cruised along through all of them. I was prepared to keep my Constellations for the 10% of music I figured the 845's wouldn't handle but after two days of listening, I'm putting them up for sale. They are totally redundant. I did a lot of A-B-A testing to compare the two amps and there was nothing where the Constellation was better and it was quite often worse, especially in the upper treble which really surprised me. The 845's also throw a wider and deeper sound stage on big orchestral pieces than the Centaurs which have a tendency to keep everything focused right in front of me. They both image very well, but the 845s give me a better sense of the width of the stage or venue.
Since I live just outside of DC, as does David Berning, I had a chance to host David today for about 5 hours. I asked him to bring some of his own material for evaluation and also played him a lot of mine. It was great to meet him, talk about his background, and get more indepth on what makes the 845 special. I have not tried the 211's yet but strongly suspect those are not going to be my tube of choice for most music based on what I've been hearing and just what people have described to me about the 211's.
Anyway, as a someone who always thought solid state was the way to go for max power, transparency, and resolution - I have learned a lot in the last few weeks. I'm happy I got past my bias against tubes and used my ears to make a decision and now, I'm sure I have a lot more to learn about tubes.
Since I live just outside of DC, as does David Berning, I had a chance to host David today for about 5 hours. I asked him to bring some of his own material for evaluation and also played him a lot of mine. It was great to meet him, talk about his background, and get more indepth on what makes the 845 special. I have not tried the 211's yet but strongly suspect those are not going to be my tube of choice for most music based on what I've been hearing and just what people have described to me about the 211's.
Anyway, as a someone who always thought solid state was the way to go for max power, transparency, and resolution - I have learned a lot in the last few weeks. I'm happy I got past my bias against tubes and used my ears to make a decision and now, I'm sure I have a lot more to learn about tubes.
CONGRATULATUONS! That is a great report!
Welcome to Tubeland!
(I am surprised that the 60 watt Berning 211/845 is powerful enough to drive the M3 without strain, but I take your word for it!)
PS: Another example of tubes sounding better than solid-state on Magico speakers!
Welcome to Tubeland!
(I am surprised that the 60 watt Berning 211/845 is powerful enough to drive the M3 without strain, but I take your word for it!)
PS: Another example of tubes sounding better than solid-state on Magico speakers!
Hope you are going to be very happy with this high quality tube amp.
Wondering why you think that the 845 tubes will sound better than the 211 tubes; does David maybe have a preference for the former (as well)? Both are great valves imho: played with the 845 in the Zanden 9500 mk iii amps and I am still playing with the 211 in my Kondo Kagura amps. In the latter amp the quality of the 211 valves make a big difference (never experimented with various 845 valves) and the RCA nos 211 I am currently using are so much better than the (Chinese made) current production 211 tubes. Are you playing with modern made 845/211 tubes?
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