The best 5 speakers that you have had

[microstrip]

Okay Micro , home work for you .
Im sure you have a dealer distributor of Vivid in your country to try these out

You have 2 good options Vivid G 1 and Vivid G2.

The G1 is 92 db efficient and has a minimum imp of 3 ohms at at 20 khz , it would be nice to have a G1 graph so we can see the full impedance graph , but this and the G2 look to be very promising .

View attachment 105647View attachment 105648

Homework just using google in five minutes shows that the Vivids are not compatible at all with the Lamm ML3. Real measurements are available, we do not have to guess on manufacturer specifications.

BTW1, I assume you know the difference between sensitivity and efficiency ...
BTW 2, I expected a better suggestion from you ...

 

[microstrip]

Well I did my best to help micro out but as always he did not listen, bought the amps, and put them on sale after 3 months - now it's been over 4 years.

Why listening to someone who has a preference in music , stereo and life so much different from mine?

I had a great time with Lamm's, enjoyed myself and a few friends, the only thing I could not guess was that they were so hard to sell. But I have now a buyer, they are great amplifiers. I could have easily have stayed with the Lamm ML3 in the XLF's if I did not also own the VTL Siegfried II. The ML3 were just the next one in the preferred list.

Besides my current speakers are the SoundLab's A1 PX that are also an excellent match with the Siegfried II.

 

[andromedaaudio]

How was the GRAAF GM20? Which Ayon amp did you have?

Hot , those otl s run hot .

It was a small integrated on KT 120 s iirc

 

[andromedaaudio]

Homework just using google in five minutes shows that the Vivids are not compatible at all with the Lamm ML3. Real measurements are available, we do not have to guess on manufacturer specifications.

BTW1, I assume you know the difference between sensitivity and efficiency ...
BTW 2, I expected a better suggestion from you ...

.
Lol
I guess i can conclude my suggestions werent appreciated.

Efficiency / sensitivity 2 terms for basically the same thing .
How well/ efficient a transducer is capable of converting electrical energy into sound

 

[bonzo75]

Why listening to someone who has a preference in music , stereo and life so much different from mine?

I had a great time with Lamm's, enjoyed myself and a few friends, the only thing I could not guess was that they were so hard to sell. But I have now a buyer, they are great amplifiers. I could have easily have stayed with the Lamm ML3 in the XLF's if I did not also own the VTL Siegfried II. The ML3 were just the next one in the preferred list.

Besides my current speakers are the SoundLab's A1 PX that are also an excellent match with the Siegfried II.

you put them on for sale in three months after receiving them. So like it or not, our preferences in that regard seem aligned. Congrats on finally finding a buyer

 

[morricab]

you put them on for sale in three months after receiving them. So like it or not, our preferences in that regard seem aligned. Congrats on finally finding a buyer

Why don’t you like the ML3s?

 

[bonzo75]

Why don’t you like the ML3s?

They were pointless on the XLF.

 

[christoph]

They were pointless on the XLF.

Aren't the XLFs gone?

 

[bonzo75]

Aren't the XLFs gone?

This is from way back in 2019.

 

[Argonaut]

Why don’t you like the ML3s?

Romy loves them http://www.romythecat.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=3&postID=8146#8146

 

[andromedaaudio]

Romy loves them http://www.romythecat.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=3&postID=8146#8146

This is from even way more back , 2008 .

I heard the LAMM ML2 on only one occasion back in 2005 somewhere
Long time ago on Kharma exquisites at Kharma OLS in Breda

 

[RCanelas]

Efficiency / sensitivity 2 terms for basically the same thing .
How well/ efficient a transducer is capable of converting electrical energy into sound

No. These things are technical terms and have precise definitions. They are related but they are not 'the same thing', no matter what angle you look at it from, except from the simplistic (and consequently wrong) angle.

One pertains to direct sound, another to total radiated sound. They look similar, but they are not, for example, they lack a direct relationship, and they cannot be derived from one another only knowing basic electromechanic properties of the driver. The implications are not trivial, but relevant for a loudspeaker designer, as they dictate a lot about the sound signature of a given design and its performance in a room.

 

[morricab]

No. These things are technical terms and have precise definitions. They are related but they are not 'the same thing', no matter what angle you look at it from, except from the simplistic (and consequently wrong) angle.

One pertains to direct sound, another to total radiated sound. They look similar, but they are not, for example, they lack a direct relationship, and they cannot be derived from one another only knowing basic electromechanic properties of the driver. The implications are not trivial, but relevant for a loudspeaker designer, as they dictate a lot about the sound signature of a given design and its performance in a room.

Sorry but their is a direct conversion from sensitivity SPL at 1 watt/meter to efficiency. It is log relationship (ie. not linear) but the dB scale is also not linear.

Efficiency and sensitivity conversion - loudspeaker percent and dB per watt and meter loudspeaker efficiency versus sensitivity vs speaker sensitivity 1 watt = 2,83 volt box chart - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin

Efficiency and sensitivity conversion - loudspeaker percent and dB per watt and meter dB/W/m loudspeaker efficiency versus sensitivity vs speaker sensitivity 1 watt = 2,83 volt box chart - sengpielaudio Eberhard Sengpiel

www.sengpielaudio.com

 

[bonzo75]

No what Rcanelas is referring to is the db loudness Vs the ability to drive. You (Brad) are referring to the db and the respective loudness.

what happens if you have two 100db speakers, one flat 8 ohms impedance and first order crossover, two way, one fourth order many more ways (4 or 5), a drop in impedance somewhere to 2 ohms.

What happens if one has an easy to drive woofer requiring not much grip, the other one needs a lot more grip

 

[RCanelas]

I really wouldn't want to derail the tread, just felt the urge to respond to the categorical statement that those are the same.

@morricab you are correct, we can obviously draw a log linear relation between efficiency and sensitivity, energy isn't lost so if you account for it you have a working expression. Alas I must insist my point still stands if you look at the fine print of the derivation of that expression: depends on the radiation space assumption. As soon as you have that, any formula becomes a rude approximation at best. If you measure drivers you can easily find prediction errors in excess of 150%. Basket geometry, material, spider hysteresis, cone profile, none of that gets accounted for in Sensitivity in dB = 112 + 10 log (efficiency), as it is a simple global energy conservation statement.

 

[morricab]

I really wouldn't want to derail the tread, just felt the urge to respond to the categorical statement that those are the same.

@morricab you are correct, we can obviously draw a log linear relation between efficiency and sensitivity, energy isn't lost so if you account for it you have a working expression. Alas I must insist my point still stands if you look at the fine print of the derivation of that expression: depends on the radiation space assumption. As soon as you have that, any formula becomes a rude approximation at best. If you measure drivers you can easily find prediction errors in excess of 150%. Basket geometry, material, spider hysteresis, cone profile, none of that gets accounted for in Sensitivity in dB = 112 + 10 log (efficiency), as it is a simple global energy conservation statement.

Yes, it gets accounted for by the MEASURED SPL in dB with 1 watt input at 1 meter distance. All what you describe can affect that SPL result but once you have that number you have a direct conversion to efficiency.
Let’s not confuse this with what manufacturers rate their speakers… the truth is in the SPL number with fixed parameters of power and distance. What went into that is irrelevant for determining efficiency from SPL with given parameters.

 

[morricab]

No what Rcanelas is referring to is the db loudness Vs the ability to drive. You (Brad) are referring to the db and the respective loudness.

what happens if you have two 100db speakers, one flat 8 ohms impedance and first order crossover, two way, one fourth order many more ways (4 or 5), a drop in impedance somewhere to 2 ohms.

What happens if one has an easy to drive woofer requiring not much grip, the other one needs a lot more grip

He does not saying anything like your “interpretation ». Also, your understanding of what I said makes no sense. I was stating that there is a direct relationship between SPL (given in dB) and efficiency (given in % ) and there is, which Rcaneles was stating doesn’t exist and that they are quite different…they are not and Andromeda was essentially correct.

No, two 100dB speakers are not actually both 100dB speakers if there are significant impedance differences. A 4 ohm 100dB speaker is only 100dB at 2.83V, which into 4 ohms is 2 watts not 1 watt. So, it is actually 3dB less sensitive than the 8ohm 100dB speaker with the same 2.83V (1 watt into 8 ohms) input.

 

[RCanelas]

Yes, it gets accounted for by the MEASURED SPL in dB with 1 watt input at 1 meter distance. All what you describe can affect that SPL result but once you have that number you have a direct conversion to efficiency.
Let’s not confuse this with what manufacturers rate their speakers… the truth is in the SPL number with fixed parameters of power and distance. What went into that is irrelevant for determining efficiency from SPL with given parameters.

According to this some of the drivers that I use should be upwards of 116dB sensitive. Much to my unhappiness, they fall just short of 98dB. If you find a way to recover the lost energy let know, I’m most interested.

 

[morricab]

According to this some of the drivers that I use should be upwards of 116dB sensitive. Much to my unhappiness, they fall just short of 98dB. If you find a way to recover the lost energy let know, I’m most interested.

That is completely beside the point that Andromeda or I were making! The driver in question is both less sensitive AND less efficient than claimed…the relationship between sensitivity and efficiency is not affected by a mfgs bogus sensitivity claims.

 

[RCanelas]

That is completely beside the point that Andromeda or I were making! The driver in question is both less sensitive AND less efficient than claimed…the relationship between sensitivity and efficiency is not affected by a mfgs bogus sensitivity claims.

I’d be happy to continue this back and forth until we can unequivocally distinguish between ideal electric efficiency and effective acoustic efficiency, but I believe I’ve made my point. The numbers I used as an example are from exhaustively measuring the driver, not by using the manufacturer spec sheet. The driver in question simply radiates more total acoustic power in relationship to the direct radiated power than what the log linear function predicts, pointing to it’s rudimentary roots as a simple global energy conservation equation, with simple coarse corrective terms. Don’t get me wrong, physics always wins and that expression still holds, it’s just that the energy it accounts for is not all acoustic, nor all electric, rendering it useless if you want to equate sensitivity to efficiency in effective terms, as far as I’m concerned.