David Karmeli’s Bionor/Lamm/AS-2000 Audio System

[MarcelNL]

Ok, the answer is no…unless you apply DSP.

the answer to what question please?

 

[morricab]

the answer to what question please?

ARe Bionors time coherent...the answer is no.

 

[MarcelNL]

Theoretically they are Kugelwellenhorns, patented for having a large phase coherent 'plug'

A calculated phase coherent speaker IMHO always sounds worse than a speaker that is physically time adjusted..call me silly but that is my preference and that of many who have heard the difference so far.

Aries Cerat came closest to doing that with the Aurora, the tweeter was aligned quite well but not perfect (and the volume was WAY over the top at the demo)

 

[morricab]

Theoretically they are Kugelwellenhorns, patented for having a large phase coherent 'plug'

A calculated phase coherent speaker IMHO always sounds worse than a speaker that is physically time adjusted..call me silly but that is my preference and that of many who have heard the difference so far.

Aries Cerat came closest to doing that with the Aurora, the tweeter was aligned quite well but not perfect (and the volume was WAY over the top at the demo)

A speaker can only be time coherent if both the phase and physical spacing are correct. if either of those is not right then the speaker will not be time coherent.

Edit: Or DSP is used to correct both phase and distance digitally.

 

[Audiohertz2]

Theoretically they are Kugelwellenhorns, patented for having a large phase coherent 'plug'

A calculated phase coherent speaker IMHO always sounds worse than a speaker that is physically time adjusted..call me silly but that is my preference and that of many who have heard the difference so far.

Aries Cerat came closest to doing that with the Aurora, the tweeter was aligned quite well but not perfect (and the volume was WAY over the top at the demo)

Agree !

physical time alignment is superior to any signal adjustments ...

 

[Audiohertz2]

A speaker can only be time coherent if both the phase and physical spacing are correct. if either of those is not right then the speaker will not be time coherent.

Edit: Or DSP is used to correct both phase and distance digitally.

You need to define your terminologies a bit more , moving physically is adjusting phase , so when you mention phase are you talking electrically or acoustically ..?

 

[morricab]

You need to define your terminologies a bit more , moving physically is adjusting phase , so when you mention phase are you talking electrically or acoustically ..?

Electrical phase and physical alignment. If the electrical phase is correct then you adjust the driver distances such that the impulse of each driver reaches the ear at the same time. A step response tells the whole story of what is and what is not time coherent.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...given the size of the stage and the distribution of the musicians on the stage (L-R and F-B) is a large orchestra time-coherent to the audience?

 

[MarcelNL]

...given the size of the stage and the distribution of the musicians on the stage (L-R and F-B) is a large orchestra time-coherent to the audience?

great question, I always think that great composers (and conductors) play with that aspect...

 

[Folsom]

Bionor/Eurodyn crossovers are 2nd order. As in phase of the tweeter is 180* out of phase with the woofers. They are also not physically aligned.

All these assertions are wishful thinking. You are just lucky that some speakers support it enough to give you something to talk about. The reality is things are more complicated and design of a speaker is not that straight forward to make it good.

 

[MarcelNL]

That is the beauty of designing your own speaker, one can adapt and try things...

The Bionor does not really have a tweeter in it's original design, 500Hz and upwards are taken care of by the top horn (or horns for the Bionor II)
It IS adjustable, I agree it's not likely tuned in the horizontal plane and the adjustment likely to compensate for theatre dimensions.

 

[Folsom]

It is a compression driver that is essentially a big tweeter.

A theater has nothing to do with horizontal alignment choice "compensation". Aiming it some is a price of the directivity vs theater shape.

Dogma is not preserved here.

 

[MarcelNL]

It is a compression driver that is essentially a big tweeter.

A theater has nothing to do with horizontal alignment choice "compensation". Aiming it some is a price of the directivity vs theater shape.

Dogma is not preserved here.

isn't that exactly what I wrote?

Dogma, what dogma?

 

[jeff1225]

It is a compression driver that is essentially a big tweeter.

A theater has nothing to do with horizontal alignment choice "compensation". Aiming it some is a price of the directivity vs theater shape.

Dogma is not preserved here.

Is it? From what I've read, it doesn't go above 8K. Wouldn't you call that a midrange compression driver?

The one critique that I've consistently heard for two way vintage horns is that they lack top end "sparkle." I have listened to my three way JBL Hartsfields with the 076 horn tweeter disconnected, you lose a lot of fidelity.

 

[Folsom]

Is it? From what I've read, it doesn't go above 8K. Wouldn't you call that a midrange compression driver?

The one critique that I've consistently heard for two way vintage horns is that they lack top end "sparkle." I have listened to my three way JBL Hartsfields with the 076 horn tweeter disconnected, you lose a lot of fidelity.

I would qualify anything that goes past 2k as potentially tweeter/high-frequency designation. Midranges can play up to 6k in some cases but they're usually past a break up point by then, past that and you're more "fullrange" if it goes low enough.

There is definitely a difference without the highest frequencies. Although speakers that play to 12khz do not leave a lot out, as in it isn't like you're missing everything suddenly. I believe your JBLs tap out about there too.

The Klangfilm is a high frequency driver that plays surprisingly low. Anyway, none of it changes the phase and alignment portions of what we're talking about. However the wavelength distances on the Klangfilm are within range so they sound as one.

 

[MarcelNL]

A while ago we did a tweeter shootout from plusminus 7Khz upwards and the KL302 did very well. I would not say it lacks sparkle

 

[DasguteOhr]

Thats all what you need to build your own bionor sold in Ebay Kleinanzeigen 4 weeks ago.
Frequency responce looks good 50-16khz +- 3db right side above diagram


The xover 12db

 

[MarcelNL]

yeah I noticed that ad!
crazy find

 

[andromedaaudio]

The klangfilm rolls 10 db of at 15 khz .
I assume the top end will sound a bit dull
For the rest its phenomonaly flat / neutral .

You could use it without supertweeter i assume

Compression drivers / Horn FR graphs ( Vitavox S2 )

This is a thread to combine info regarding characteristics of compression drivers / horn combinations. (incl Vitavox S2) http://unepassionaudiophile.fr/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Horns_measurements_ETF2010d-1.pdf

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[Audiohertz2]

Bionor/Eurodyn crossovers are 2nd order. As in phase of the tweeter is 180* out of phase with the woofers. They are also not physically aligned.

All these assertions are wishful thinking. You are just lucky that some speakers support it enough to give you something to talk about. The reality is things are more complicated and design of a speaker is not that straight forward to make it good.

Yes , True , But ........ people like things ..!