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The [coffee snobs'] espresso thread
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While I agree that the grinder is important, née critical, what you do with the grinder is even more important.
It does no good to use an endgame grinder if you aren’t capable of adjusting it toward achieving a specific goal.
One tried and true method for a newbie to learn is to pick bean variety, roast, weight, pressure profile, and water temperature. Pick a target ratio of bean weight to espresso weight. Pick a target time for the extraction. Then play with the grind, finer to slow the extraction and coarser to speed it up. The difference in the extraction time due to the grind, from too fast to too slow, is often surprisingly small, perhaps describable as minuscule.
Of course the proof of success is in reaching your taste goals, which may be as simple as tasting hints of the flavors noted for the beans on the bag. Or your goals may be more complex, especially if you progress to roasting single origin beans yourself.
My point is that throwing a few thou into a grinder isn’t going to guarantee a good pull. It just makes it more likely that your experiments won’t be thwarted due to grinder variability issues.
A good grinder will have a rigid frame, tight tolerance bearings, stable torque under load, and properly aligned high quality burrs.
It will not significantly retain partially ground beans from the last grind.
Everybody has their own routine. If you are at the early stages of developing yours, part of the tuition is in making your own errors and learning from them. You don’t need an endgame grinder to learn how to grind … but once you have first hand knowledge from your own experiments, you may appreciate an endgame grinder. Or not. Some folks go through this, and end up preferring a Superautomatic. This forum is actually about automatics.
It does no good to use an endgame grinder if you aren’t capable of adjusting it toward achieving a specific goal.
One tried and true method for a newbie to learn is to pick bean variety, roast, weight, pressure profile, and water temperature. Pick a target ratio of bean weight to espresso weight. Pick a target time for the extraction. Then play with the grind, finer to slow the extraction and coarser to speed it up. The difference in the extraction time due to the grind, from too fast to too slow, is often surprisingly small, perhaps describable as minuscule.
Of course the proof of success is in reaching your taste goals, which may be as simple as tasting hints of the flavors noted for the beans on the bag. Or your goals may be more complex, especially if you progress to roasting single origin beans yourself.
My point is that throwing a few thou into a grinder isn’t going to guarantee a good pull. It just makes it more likely that your experiments won’t be thwarted due to grinder variability issues.
A good grinder will have a rigid frame, tight tolerance bearings, stable torque under load, and properly aligned high quality burrs.
It will not significantly retain partially ground beans from the last grind.
Everybody has their own routine. If you are at the early stages of developing yours, part of the tuition is in making your own errors and learning from them. You don’t need an endgame grinder to learn how to grind … but once you have first hand knowledge from your own experiments, you may appreciate an endgame grinder. Or not. Some folks go through this, and end up preferring a Superautomatic. This forum is actually about automatics.
Some other thoughts…
Choose a machine that a good commercial coffee machine tech is comfortable/familiar with servicing. Brands like profitec, ECM, La Mazzocha etc that do home machine versions as well as commercial machines are good at this… some good machines can last decades with regular maintenance and servicing.
If you are mainly doing lattes the grinder is still important but I’d also suggest a sota expensive grinder is overkill. The best grinders come into play especially if you are working with lighter roasts for shots.
It’s hard to work out where you may end up if you are just starting out so if you’re up for budgeting to something a bit better still a middle place in the top end is often a good place to start.
How long to get up to operation is another factor… will you leave it on, are you going to get it plumbed in etc
To allow for some exploration and play I’d suggest go manual but even a lever might just be more than you want to do… try and get a balance on how much the operation requires of you until you are sure.
Choose a machine that a good commercial coffee machine tech is comfortable/familiar with servicing. Brands like profitec, ECM, La Mazzocha etc that do home machine versions as well as commercial machines are good at this… some good machines can last decades with regular maintenance and servicing.
If you are mainly doing lattes the grinder is still important but I’d also suggest a sota expensive grinder is overkill. The best grinders come into play especially if you are working with lighter roasts for shots.
It’s hard to work out where you may end up if you are just starting out so if you’re up for budgeting to something a bit better still a middle place in the top end is often a good place to start.
How long to get up to operation is another factor… will you leave it on, are you going to get it plumbed in etc
To allow for some exploration and play I’d suggest go manual but even a lever might just be more than you want to do… try and get a balance on how much the operation requires of you until you are sure.
Good advice!
On the grinder, the biggest difference between a traditional conical and large diameter flat burr grinder (especially with espresso specific burrs) is grind size distribution.
For those getting into espresso, typically a too-coarse grind or fast extraction will cause a sour taste, while a too-fine or long extraction tends to taste bitter. Conical espresso grinders make a relatively wide distribution of grind size, so you get some sour and some bitter tastes, and an overall result where the sour and bitter balance. Espresso is complex but it doesn't vary all that much in flavor profile.
The Mahlkoenig EK43 was the first grinder to have extremely even grind particle sizs, but it wasn't even designed for espresso. It is a commercial grinder intended for large volume use. Some noticed it's superior grind performance, which eventually led to most current uber-grinders using large diameter flat burrs. Even size particles mean no more sour and bitter, and better overall extraction. It works really well with lighter roasts and brings out the flavors of unique beans. It's like removing noise and dialing in room acoustics on a stereo. Traditional espresso is like Led Zeppelin, maybe you don't want the best system, you want a forgiving system instead. EK43 and similar grinders make for better clarity in taste but also less euphonic distortion. OTOH, they are more forgiving since it won't turn sour or bitter unless you're really, really far off.
Basically, if you're going to buy the same traditional espresso roast week after week, grid size distribution doesn't matter as much and a decent conical grinder in the $1k range would be the best you ever need. If you always get different beans and like single origins with lighter roasts, spending the cash on a grinder with the most even size distribution in your price range is the way to go.
I'd probably get a Kafatek Flat Max if I was to buy new, but there is something cool about the EK43, it's massive and lights dim when you turn it on. It's $5k+ after required upgrades these days though. Kafatek is $3600 and hand made in small batches in the US.
Kafatek also has a conical for $2500...
The smaller portafilter is my preference for manual pulls. The coffee column is taller, and the tamp more forgiving.
The Forge is cool, but I would tire of the drill.
It is not hard to get shots that look good. Any pressurized pull can be dialed in to give crema. The problem is extraction of flavors, not creation of gas bubbles (that are actually a bit bitter). Pressure, temperature, extraction time and extraction ratio all affect flavors for any given bean.
Regarding grinder, after years of using conicals, I am quite pleased with the far greater uniformity of my flat burrs. I can go finer than ever before… and out of a 0 to 120 continuously variable scale, I can taste AND measure the differences in changes as small as 1 increment.
I am pulling shots exclusively, and nearly always light or medium roasts.
Strietman is probably the nicest manual machine, I may get one at some point.
The Forge's portafilter basket is held on by threads but it's really fast and easy to use. It's just a chunk of metal with nothing to clean or maintain except a few o-rings. IMO, a std size portafilter basket is an advantage as there's a huge selection.
I’ve been considering the Strietman.
But, solely on aesthetic grounds, that big shiny stainless steel base bothers me. It would be really elegant without it.
If I got one, I’d be compelled to “re-engineer” the base with something different
With your goal to keep it under $1000, Baratza, and Turin come to mind quickly. But there is an open box Ceado at Chriscoffee.com right this minute that’s marked down below $1000.
www.chriscoffee.com
espressooutlet.com
www.1stincoffee.com
E5SD Single Dosing Grinder (Open Box)
Ceado E5SD single dosing coffee grinder with zero retention bellows attachments. Stepless and doserless grinder for ultimate freshness. 300W motor powers through your coffee grinding in seconds.
www.chriscoffee.com
Turin DF83V Variable Speed Coffee / Espresso Grinder
SSP burrs are not pre-installed and ship un-installed in box or separate shipment Introducing the Turin DF83V, the next generation in coffee grinding excellence. This grinder epitomizes the perfect blend of aesthetic design and practical functionality, crafted through unwavering dedication. As...
espressooutlet.com
Baratza Vario W + Coffee Grinder
The Baratza Vario W + coffee grinder with steel burrs offers weight based grinding for extreme accuracy. Rather than using a timer, the Vario W + is a fully integrated real-time weight based grinder. The Vario W + has 3 user programmable grind/dosing buttons. It features top quality flat 54mm...
www.1stincoffee.com
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Just my 2Cent. If you search for a bargain in single dose grinders, take a look on the Honne from Hedone. The burrs, the whole quality of build and the design makes it a no Brainer.I've used more than 10 of the best SDG, and the Honne is playing in the top range and costs just $1.300-1.450.
Hard to find something else on this level.
Hard to find something else on this level.
Here's an older model Strietman wall mount.
I could definitely be into this!
I could definitely be into this!
I’ve decided to go with the Olympia Express Mina lever press and the Timemore 64S grinder.
This will be quite a departure from my automated process with the Breville!
Now looking for a standalone Steamer (that doesn’t have plastic between the boiler and milk).
This will be quite a departure from my automated process with the Breville!
Now looking for a standalone Steamer (that doesn’t have plastic between the boiler and milk).
Bellman Stovetop Milk Steamer 50SS
The Bellman 50SS allows you to steam and pour velvety micro foam like a pro barista. Create silky, creamy milk that is both sweet and smooth.
bellmanespresso.com
Learn to drink it without milk and your coffee is simplified forever. I grew up in New England where “coffee regulah”* is the rule (regulah is not black, but doctored). If I can do it, so can you.
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* https://www.boston.com/news/busines...limit-and-that-limit-is-new-york-state/?amp=1
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If you tip milk into your espresso, you don't really need a good coffee. That's kind putting coke into an Octomore x4.
A sin
A sin
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I switch it up, there are some beans that it's best not to add milk to, like any expensive single origin. I get expensive beans every once in a while, not all the time. Otherwise I like to rotate through what the local roasters offer including traditional espresso blends as well as single origins.
My favorite milk drink these days is a relatively long extraction so you have around 75g out, then add hot water until you have about 120g, then ~20-30g of warmed half and half. It's similar volume to a cap with the milk being a lot less dominant. 75g out requires a unimodal grinder though, you can do the same with a typical 2:1 extraction and just adding more water.
My favorite milk drink these days is a relatively long extraction so you have around 75g out, then add hot water until you have about 120g, then ~20-30g of warmed half and half. It's similar volume to a cap with the milk being a lot less dominant. 75g out requires a unimodal grinder though, you can do the same with a typical 2:1 extraction and just adding more water.