The Digital Director - A new MSB product improving everything from the source to the output

[luca.pelliccioli]

I'm also going to reach out to Vince. Hey maybe he can work a special combo trade in special

I’m going to decide if buying or not the Premier DD and it’s useful to know in a next future how its trade in value could be.

Yes a Reference upgrade is an option but at a higher cost, not affordable to my pocket without a reasonable trade in (not only considering MSB gear but also other components in my system).

My MSB journey started in May, so I’m not in a hurry at all.

 

[Armsan]

I believe the only difference between the Reference and Select DD is the Chassis. Of course MSB would be the one to ask to be 100% sure.

Indeed, inside they are exactly the same.

 

[Young Skywalker]

Is the Reference (with no DD) better than a Premier w/ DD? I have to assume it is, and has been designed this way so people will upgrade.

The answer depends on how you intend to implement each of the two digital options. If you run a separate preamp then the advantages of the Reference DAC’s constant impedance passive volume control over the Premier’s hybrid /digital volume control are wasted.

If you use the Renderer input module you will benefit greatly from a Digital Director. Less so if you use a USB source and the ProUSB module.

The additional digital processing power of the Digital Directors is great for future proofing your investment in MSB’s DAC hardware which is vastly more capable than any current format.

 

[bryans]

The answer depends on how you intend to implement each of the two digital options. If you run a separate preamp then the advantages of the Reference DAC’s constant impedance passive volume control over the Premier’s hybrid /digital volume control are wasted.

If you use the Renderer input module you will benefit greatly from a Digital Director. Less so if you use a USB source and the ProUSB module.

The additional digital processing power of the Digital Directors is great for future proofing your investment in MSB’s DAC hardware which is vastly more capable than any current format.

Hmm, I'm thinking the Reference would be better with or without using a Preamp. But I haven't compared them so I can not say.

Hey @Vince Galbo if you are watching this thread. Please send me a Premier DD and Reference DAC so I can compare

 

[Kingsrule]

The answer depends on how you intend to implement each of the two digital options. If you run a separate preamp then the advantages of the Reference DAC’s constant impedance passive volume control over the Premier’s hybrid /digital volume control are wasted.

If you use the Renderer input module you will benefit greatly from a Digital Director. Less so if you use a USB source and the ProUSB module.

The additional digital processing power of the Digital Directors is great for future proofing your investment in MSB’s DAC hardware which is vastly more capable than any current format.

Why do u say that? The Renderer is resolution limited and nosier compared to the PRO USB. IMO the Renderer sounds soft, has a grey background and has very little detail and resolution compared to PRO USB into either the SII dac or the DD into the SII....
Maybe the DD helps make up for the Renderer's short comings but thats a big ask to help a lesser input

 

[Young Skywalker]

Why do u say that? The Renderer is resolution limited and nosier compared to the PRO USB. IMO the Renderer sounds soft, has a grey background and has very little detail and resolution compared to PRO USB into either the SII dac or the DD into the SII....
Maybe the DD helps make up for the Renderer's short comings but thats a big ask to help a lesser input

Your observations are totally incongruent with my own. There is absolutely nothing soft, grey or lacking in detail in my playback through the Roon Nucleus Plus>home network>Renderer module>Reference Digital Director>Reference DAC>into my active crossover loudspeakers.

I disagree, from an engineering perspective, with your comment about the Renderer being limited in resolution compared to any USB source. Why would this be the case? I can imagine that, in some home networks, there is more noise carried to the Renderer and that its heavy processing load generates more noise locally but that is totally dealt with by the Digital Director, no?

If one can get bit-perfect data to the Renderer module and all noise is eliminated at the Digital Director, why should it sound different to ANY other bit-perfect source?

The ProUSB module is performing (some) of what the Digital Director does for ALL digital sources. If I am not mistaken, MSB's own posts in this thread suggest as much.

 

[Kingsrule]

Try and play a DSD512 file on the Renderer
And wait, all u do is stream from Tidal and Qbuz. Try playing files from a local source.
Also read the limitations for the Renderer on the MSB website
Use your ears, not "engineering perspective".
Have u even tried a PRO USB in your system?

 

[Young Skywalker]

Try and play a DSD512 file on the Renderer
And wait, all u do is stream from Tidal and Qbuz. Try playing files from a local source.
Also read the limitations for the Renderer on the MSB website
Use your ears, not "engineering perspective".
Have u even tried a PRO USB in your system?

I had written a long reply based on logic and scientific principles but then thought better of it. Life is too short.

If you are happy with what you have, then more power to you. I will concentrate instead, on enjoying what I have.

 

[Alpinist]

Hi King, do you have the Digital Director yet? If so, what sort of improvement is being provided over running straight through Pro USB?

Ken

 

[Popspin]

Thanks, I’ll ask the same question to my importer and I’ll share with you here the answer.

I was thinking too that Vince, suggesting for Premier a first upgrade to the DD then (or) to the Reference, could imply a favorable trade in compared to what shown on MSB website. It would be a big jump from one to another considering DACs + DDs together.

Time will tell.

I think you’ll find a switched power supply in the Premier and a linear power supply in the Ref.
in terms of your decision I had the Reference working with the Innuos Statement before adding the Ref DD. Excellent results. MSB does raise the performance level when moving from the Premier to the Reference. .
Even with the Ref DD, I don’t believe I’ve reached Select levels of performance. Perhaps the same would apply to your Premier DD vs Ref decision. I believe your best choice long term would be the Reference. Who knows, a Ref DD could be added in the future. That combo is simply sublime! And you’ll be very pleased with the Reference, stand-alone, IMHO.
good luck l.

 

[luca.pelliccioli]

The S202 arrived today. A few days to live with it, then… decisions decisions

 

[bryans]

The S202 arrived today. A few days to live with it, then… decisions decisions
View attachment 112145

Looks real good on that stand. Like it was meant to be!

 

[ecwl]

I was just reading more about this product. I just realized that Digital Director adds about 260ms of latency according to one of the reviews. Chord M-Scaler uses a 1 million tap filter and adds about 660ms of latency. That means Digital Director probably use a 400,000 tap filter for upsampling before feeding the MSB DAC. Most interesting. Of course, tap length doesn't determine sound quality. The filtering algorithm also matters. I also wonder if the Digital Director does some noise shaping too.

 

[dsyzling]

Or the MSB Digital Director could be using faster processors...

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...what I know about whatever it's doing: DD sounds terrific.

 

[ecwl]

Or the MSB Digital Director could be using faster processors...

Hmm, the audio delay has nothing to do with processing speed. It has to do with the filter taking into account of the music signal 260ms before and after the note that you’re hearing from the DAC when trying to reconstruct the analog waveform at a higher sample rate (I’m assuming 16fs = 705.4kHz)

some people feel long tap length is not necessary while other feel it’s crucial when used with the appropriate algorithm for proper transient reconstruction. I’ve also found that a small percentage of people can’t hear the filter changes for chord M-Scaler. They can only hear the reduction in RF noise from the source. I wouldn’t be surprised if that occurs with the Digital Director too as more people get to experience it.

These spec/technical details are also really unimportant to me except for personal interest sake. At the end of the day, if people hear a sonic improvement that they like and would pay for, that’s what matters.

 

[dsyzling]

Hmm, the audio delay has nothing to do with processing speed. It has to do with the filter taking into account of the music signal 260ms before and after the note that you’re hearing from the DAC when trying to reconstruct the analog waveform at a higher sample rate (I’m assuming 16fs = 705.4kHz)

some people feel long tap length is not necessary while other feel it’s crucial when used with the appropriate algorithm for proper transient reconstruction. I’ve also found that a small percentage of people can’t hear the filter changes for chord M-Scaler. They can only hear the reduction in RF noise from the source. I wouldn’t be surprised if that occurs with the Digital Director too as more people get to experience it.

These spec/technical details are also really unimportant to me except for personal interest sake. At the end of the day, if people hear a sonic improvement that they like and would pay for, that’s what matters.

Interesting - that may account for people who sell their m-scaler after buying an LPS for their Dave (i.e. DC4/ARC6) - reduced RF noise and then no longer detect any difference with the m-scaler. I did hear a difference on a speaker system with the m-scaler (stage widened - more open, at least that was the most obvious to me) - but that was before the days of the SJ DC4s.

 

[ecwl]

Interesting - that may account for people who sell their m-scaler after buying an LPS for their Dave (i.e. DC4/ARC6) - reduced RF noise and then no longer detect any difference with the m-scaler. I did hear a difference on a speaker system with the m-scaler (stage widened - more open, at least that was the most obvious to me) - but that was before the days of the SJ DC4s.

What is unknown to me is whether those 5-10% of people can train their ears to hear the filter difference. Or whether biologically, they simply can’t hear the difference. I suspect it’s the former because I used to think the difference was subtle but with time (and training?) I tend to pick it up very quickly nowadays. But who would want to spend $5000 for an M-Scaler or even $27000 for a digital director just to learn and train their ears to detect filter differences if they didn’t care to in the first place.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...I began by adding an MScaler to a Qutest. I could tell a wee difference among Qutest filters. Adding HMS was obvious "upgrade" sonically.

Then I swapped in a Dave with the HMS. Big uptick in SQ, but honestly Qutest is very nice, if that's your budget.

I added a DC4 to the Dave and a Denefrips Gaia D2D. So, better juice and no Amanero USB workflow (I did not do the eventual Arc6 upgrade).

I tried Gen1 PGGB against Dave with and without HMS. Initially, I preferred HMS to PGGB, but system was so good, I soon sold HMS and did not upsample. I later tried Gen2 PGGB (my terms not ZB's), which is excellent and very much improved over original version. Excellent.

I tried MSB Premiere for a three week demo and thought, although the SQ signature was different, it was a parallel move of sorts, sonically, so not a good use of money.

However, it stimulated the "what if" mechanism, and I tried a three week demo of the Reference dac. OK, that was a big change (to me). Still had all the detail, but smoother and better flow. That was, after a brief A/B test, only listen to the MSB for three weeks. Then, swap Dave back into play (it was left powered on all that time, BTW). I bought the Reference and loved (love) it, but the DD was rumored to be out there.

So, next step was adding the Ref DD which I really like. Excellent detail and flow. And honestly, part of my thinking is toward the future. What will/can MSB honchos do with the extra processing horsepower of the Digital Director?

 

[Alrainbow]

Try and play a DSD512 file on the Renderer
And wait, all u do is stream from Tidal and Qbuz. Try playing files from a local source.
Also read the limitations for the Renderer on the MSB website
Use your ears, not "engineering perspective".
Have u even tried a PRO USB in your system?

Read what he is using lol. You can’t make him hear if he don’t pay attention to your comments.
I’m guessing he is a bits are bits
Enough said.