I’m planning two demos in June if the units are still available:
- FEMTO clock 93
- DD Premier
with my Premier+PowerBase
Later this summer I’d like also having an home audition of the S202 stereo amp.
I’ll share my thoughts here.
The Digital Director - A new MSB product improving everything from the source to the output
- Thread starter CKKeung
- Start date
- FEMTO clock 93
- DD Premier
with my Premier+PowerBase
Later this summer I’d like also having an home audition of the S202 stereo amp.
I’ll share my thoughts here.
...if you change the setting from filter to bypass, I think you would get an A/B opportunity, wouldn't you? If the "+" is displayed, the DD is "engaged." If no plus-sign, it's a pass-through.
That said, only MSB could tell us what, if any, circuitry is still in use, and how valid this is as a "pass-through" for A/B listening.
It’s not vague. “Pass through” means the digital director passes through the data unchanged. The DAC works normally with the benefit of the superior isolation of the Digital Director. “Filter” means the Digital Director offloads all the digital filtering the DAC would have done in its onboard processors leaving a much quieter internal electrical environment inside the DAC chassis. This is indicated by the “+”.
Pass through is mainly needed to update the DACs firmware. Or perhaps if you had a strong preference for the DACs onboard digital filtering, which is a couple generations behind the filter precision possible in the Digital Directors more powerful processors. You will still get the benefit of the digital directors perfect electrical isolation, which does considerably improve the sound quality on its own.
Pass through is mainly needed to update the DACs firmware. Or perhaps if you had a strong preference for the DACs onboard digital filtering, which is a couple generations behind the filter precision possible in the Digital Directors more powerful processors. You will still get the benefit of the digital directors perfect electrical isolation, which does considerably improve the sound quality on its own.
DMSB … given the filtering in the Director and processing in the DAC, would any offline pre-processing via PGGP be worthwhile for a Reference + Director? If so, what settings would you recommend?
All computer based digital filtering I have evaluated, PGGB, HQ Player, Roon, and many more…, is highly colored and imprecise in all settings and configurations, If you ”must!” have the color and grain they add then by all means you can use them, otherwise stick to unfiltered and unprocessed audio playback. I am not opposed in principle too offline PC based digital filtering, but I have yet to come across a single excellent implementation. One that takes all the necessary parameters and details into account.
Digital filter design is incredibly nuanced and most of the people writing digital filter software don’t recognize that many of those nuances are very important. They usually ignore them or simply aren’t aware of them, to the detriment of the algorithms they produce. When I began writing digital filter software over 25 years ago I was quite arrogant and believed “I knew exactly what was correct”. After getting smacked with negative feedback over and over again, every time I made a “perfect filter”, from some very trustworthy listeners. I was forced to take a more humble and methodological approach. I decided to treat digital filter design more like scientific data gathering instead. I learned slowly that what should be insignificant factors and parameters were extremely important to the final sound quality, and that most of what I had been taught was “technically correct” but omitted many, many tiny and extremely important implementation details that were absolutely necessary for the ultimate sound quality of any digital filtering algorithm. As the many DACs I designed over many years improved, more and more of those details were discovered. To date I have acquired a huge volume of data about what is necessary in digital filtering algorithms for ultimate sound quality. While some other algorithms may touch on a few of these important details I believe that by now, after more than 25 years of feedback from many trusted evaluators and my own listening experience, I probably have a mostly complete understanding of those details. At least a more complete understanding than the authors of the other software (and hardware) I have evaluated. So, long story short, its best to keep the processing in the equipment for all of MSBs DACs.
Digital filter design is incredibly nuanced and most of the people writing digital filter software don’t recognize that many of those nuances are very important. They usually ignore them or simply aren’t aware of them, to the detriment of the algorithms they produce. When I began writing digital filter software over 25 years ago I was quite arrogant and believed “I knew exactly what was correct”. After getting smacked with negative feedback over and over again, every time I made a “perfect filter”, from some very trustworthy listeners. I was forced to take a more humble and methodological approach. I decided to treat digital filter design more like scientific data gathering instead. I learned slowly that what should be insignificant factors and parameters were extremely important to the final sound quality, and that most of what I had been taught was “technically correct” but omitted many, many tiny and extremely important implementation details that were absolutely necessary for the ultimate sound quality of any digital filtering algorithm. As the many DACs I designed over many years improved, more and more of those details were discovered. To date I have acquired a huge volume of data about what is necessary in digital filtering algorithms for ultimate sound quality. While some other algorithms may touch on a few of these important details I believe that by now, after more than 25 years of feedback from many trusted evaluators and my own listening experience, I probably have a mostly complete understanding of those details. At least a more complete understanding than the authors of the other software (and hardware) I have evaluated. So, long story short, its best to keep the processing in the equipment for all of MSBs DACs.
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FWIW when i had the same question i was advised to definitely go to the higher level dac over the DD. I ended up going to the select over the reference but everyone i spoke with said hands down the hybrid dac is a huge improvement. Adding on the director made a difference to me especially over ethernet. (i also just demo'd a high end server/streamer and usb is way better than i thought).
I remember first getting the DD and thinking it was much more clear, darker background, better instrument separation, bass etc and then later doing an a/b between the passthrough and filter functions and thinking i might have been wrong. i wasn't aware you still got the DD isolation even using passthrough. I plan to demo a few more servers and i'll be pulling the modules out of the DD and comparing to see if i can quantify the value vs a high end server. regardless the DD did make things much better for my system overall
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Yes one thing I'm trying to understand is MSB trade up policy. I know I can get 100% credit from Premier to Reference. I'm curious to find out if I get the Premier DD can I get 100% credit going from Premier DAC+DD towards a Reference DD. If so I probably would go that route.
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Can you elaborate? Are you saying that the USB input fed by a high end server is materially better than the Renderer fed via Ethernet? Or are you saying that USB sounds better fed by a high end server than a low end server?
I was saying the usb input on a higher end server is materially better than my usb input on my nucleus. on a higher end server i think i actually preferred the usb over ethernet (but my time was limited). on my nucleus and DD i generally stick with ethernet
Meanwhile I’m still evaluating about possible upgrades to Premier DD or Reference or S202, I’m listening for the first time in my system the FEMTO93, the improvement blow me away, much more than I got when I introduced the Powerbase.
The result is so much pleasant, well balanced, organic and rich, natural or even on the warm side. I’m literally falling in love with this liquid sound. Really engaging.
One of the best qualities I’m experimenting is that feeling of deep silence, decay lasts longer and sometimes the music seems to emerge from an infinite “black hole”. Sorry for the hyperbole!
I’m going via USB Pro/Pro ISL from Innuos Statement. If the DD can add more improvements on this already excellent kind of sound (as for qualities above described) I’m very tempted due to more affordable chances for my pockets.
Curious to know, as other members already asked, if the trade in program could be 100% value going from Premier/DD to Reference DAC only.
The result is so much pleasant, well balanced, organic and rich, natural or even on the warm side. I’m literally falling in love with this liquid sound. Really engaging.
One of the best qualities I’m experimenting is that feeling of deep silence, decay lasts longer and sometimes the music seems to emerge from an infinite “black hole”. Sorry for the hyperbole!
I’m going via USB Pro/Pro ISL from Innuos Statement. If the DD can add more improvements on this already excellent kind of sound (as for qualities above described) I’m very tempted due to more affordable chances for my pockets.
Curious to know, as other members already asked, if the trade in program could be 100% value going from Premier/DD to Reference DAC only.
Yes I spoke with my dealer and he said the trade in program is like for like. I couldn't combine a Premier DAC+DD going to a Reference. I was kinda thinking this but it didn't hurt to ask I guess. It would have been nice if I could though.
MSB Trade In Program
Trade In Program 2024
MSB offers up to 90% of the sale price on MSB products towards upgrading your audio system. Trade in your amplifier or DAC today.
msbtechnology.com
Yes a Premier, Reference, and Select DD
Premier DD: https://msbtechnology.com/dacs/premier_digital_director/
Reference DD: https://msbtechnology.com/dacs/the-reference-digital-director/
Select DD: https://msbtechnology.com/dacs/the-select-digital-director/
I believe the only difference between the Reference and Select DD is the Chassis. Of course MSB would be the one to ask to be 100% sure.
Thanks, I’ll ask the same question to my importer and I’ll share with you here the answer.Yes I spoke with my dealer and he said the trade in program is like for like. I couldn't combine a Premier DAC+DD going to a Reference. I was kinda thinking this but it didn't hurt to ask I guess. It would have been nice if I could though.
MSB Trade In Program
Trade In Program 2024
MSB offers up to 90% of the sale price on MSB products towards upgrading your audio system. Trade in your amplifier or DAC today.
I was thinking too that Vince, suggesting for Premier a first upgrade to the DD then (or) to the Reference, could imply a favorable trade in compared to what shown on MSB website. It would be a big jump from one to another considering DACs + DDs together.
Time will tell.
I'm also going to reach out to Vince. Hey maybe he can work a special combo trade in special
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