The Digital Director - A new MSB product improving everything from the source to the output

[Armsan]

I was just reading more about this product. I just realized that Digital Director adds about 260ms of latency according to one of the reviews. Chord M-Scaler uses a 1 million tap filter and adds about 660ms of latency. That means Digital Director probably use a 400,000 tap filter for upsampling before feeding the MSB DAC. Most interesting. Of course, tap length doesn't determine sound quality. The filtering algorithm also matters. I also wonder if the Digital Director does some noise shaping too.

Can you, please, share the link of where you got that information? The DD doesn’t perform upsampling of the played files. About the algorithm of the, till now, unique filter I don’t know how it works and maybe Johnathan or Daniel can enlighten us. Actually with these ears, in my system and in my room I prefer the Passtrough mode. I’m sure in the near future there will be a filter that I will love.

 

[ecwl]

Can you, please, share the link of where you got that information? The DD doesn’t perform upsampling of the played files. About the algorithm of the, till now, unique filter I don’t know how it works and maybe Johnathan or Daniel can enlighten us. Actually with these ears, in my system and in my room I prefer the Passtrough mode. I’m sure in the near future there will be a filter that I will love.

260ms of latency comes from this review

Review MSB Premier with Director - Silence of the bits

Intro Contents 1. Intro2. The Test Setup3. The MSB Technology Sound4. Measurements MSB Premier5. CommentsFact: we have entered a class where every detail counts. Both listening and measuring-wise, this was a pretty tough review. But we do love a challenge at Alpha Audio. We review and analyze...

alpha-audio.net

you are correct that the sales literature for digital director doesn’t talk about up sampling but uses the term digital filtering. But if you’re applying a digital filter that has a 260ms latency, what are you filtering and how are you filtering, you’re probably upsampling. Filtering is just the technically correct terminology.

 

[Ian B]

I was just reading more about this product. I just realized that Digital Director adds about 260ms of latency according to one of the reviews. Chord M-Scaler uses a 1 million tap filter and adds about 660ms of latency. That means Digital Director probably use a 400,000 tap filter for upsampling before feeding the MSB DAC. Most interesting. Of course, tap length doesn't determine sound quality. The filtering algorithm also matters. I also wonder if the Digital Director does some noise shaping too.

The problem is that as far as we can tell, the DD is not changing the sample rate, and ultra-long, high-tap filters are a Chord thing and not every manufacturer or listener likes them. There are other things that could incur latency such as buffering and re-clocking and more DSP intensive filter algorithms that don't involve increasing filter taps.

 

[Young Skywalker]

Read what he is using lol. You can’t make him hear if he don’t pay attention to your comments.
I’m guessing he is a bits are bits
Enough said.

Is that a disparaging comment directed at me?

 

[Alrainbow]

Is that a disparaging comment directed at me?

Yes but as a joke only. this hobby is funny to me
We each think we know and there is nothing wrong with that
it’s all in fun

 

[Alrainbow]

Regarding the DD I’m sure it’s doing a lot of things
Msb is expensive but really good

 

[Young Skywalker]

Yes but as a joke only. this hobby is funny to me
We each think we know and there is nothing wrong with that
it’s all in fun

Okay.

You thinking differently to me or believing that you know more about anything than me, or anyone else, certainly will not diminish my enjoyment of music at home. However, your discourse is exclusionary, whether intended or not from an engagement perspective, and that does diminish my enjoyment of this forum. So a word of advice, feel free to be self-deprecating but unless you know someone very well, keep your "jokes" to yourself.

 

[matthias]

260ms of latency comes from this review

Review MSB Premier with Director - Silence of the bits

Intro Contents 1. Intro2. The Test Setup3. The MSB Technology Sound4. Measurements MSB Premier5. CommentsFact: we have entered a class where every detail counts. Both listening and measuring-wise, this was a pretty tough review. But we do love a challenge at Alpha Audio. We review and analyze...

alpha-audio.net

Interesting that the author of this review found the Video Mode better sounding.
What do owners of the DD here think?

Matt

 

[Armsan]

Interesting that the author of this review found the Video Mode better sounding.
What do owners of the DD here think?

Matt

Interesting that the author of this review found the Video Mode better sounding.
What do owners of the DD here think?

Matt

The Video Mode option, button 5 of the remote control unit, is present in MSB DACs, long before the DD, and has a very specific situation to be used per MSB recommendation. Please refer to page 12 of the Select Manual at MSB webpage, support section. Maybe this reviewer likes jitter.

 

[ecwl]

The Video Mode option, button 5 of the remote control unit, is present in MSB DACs, long before the DD, and has a very specific situation to be used per MSB recommendation. Please refer to page 12 of the Select Manual at MSB webpage, support section. Maybe this reviewer likes jitter.

Perhaps. But you can see video mode and non-video mode filters are just different based on those review measurements. there is more “ringing“ in non-video mode and there is more rejection of higher frequency sound in non-video mode. So it’s not just about jitter. To me, it comes down to audibility of digital filters (not just jitter) and what filters people prefer (even if mathematically some filters reconstruct the original analog waveforms more accurately). I think there are so many biases around the buzz words upsampling or NOS filters or tap length or ringing out there that MSB is purposefully avoiding these terminology in its marketing material to not alienate specific customers. I mean, if it sounds great to you and you can afford it, it sounds great, regardless of the buzzwords or tech behind the sound.

 

[ecwl]

The problem is that as far as we can tell, the DD is not changing the sample rate, and ultra-long, high-tap filters are a Chord thing and not every manufacturer or listener likes them. There are other things that could incur latency such as buffering and re-clocking and more DSP intensive filter algorithms that don't involve increasing filter taps.

You may very well be correct since you can just buffer with audio latency for an arbitrarily time to reduce jitter. But MSB even back with the DAC IV had the option to do a 6000 taps 32x upsampling digital filter. And since most DACs have <100 taps for digital filtering, back then 6000 taps would be considered a long tap length filter. I’m not aware of any digital filtering that stays at 44.1kHz that can increase >22kHz rejection without upsampling but I‘m just a hobbyist with no engineering knowledge so I probably don’t know what I don’t know.

 

[Alrainbow]

Way back when. I had the 5 with all the bells whistles
heard the sel 1 was not better or NIR for me
when sel 2 came out heard this too a few times better but still insane cost for sound
next the long awaited release of there new filter
Honestly best res book I heard back then period
I still feel even today the Sel 2 is a master at rebook.
im not. Fan of upsampling over all while it makes some parts better it also has its own warts
The sel 2 and even the 5 I had was very good upsamping to my ears.

 

[divertiti]

I think you’ll find a switched power supply in the Premier and a linear power supply in the Ref.
in terms of your decision I had the Reference working with the Innuos Statement before adding the Ref DD. Excellent results. MSB does raise the performance level when moving from the Premier to the Reference. .
Even with the Ref DD, I don’t believe I’ve reached Select levels of performance. Perhaps the same would apply to your Premier DD vs Ref decision. I believe your best choice long term would be the Reference. Who knows, a Ref DD could be added in the future. That combo is simply sublime! And you’ll be very pleased with the Reference, stand-alone, IMHO.
good luck l.

Thanks for sharing, we have very similar setups. What input method were you using from the statement to the Reference prior to adding the Ref DD? What type of sonic improvements did Ref DD add?

 

[Ron Resnick]

In this interview, Daniel Gullman and Jonathan Gullman discuss the thinking behind and the implementation of the Digital Director:

 

[Jeffy]

Ron one of your best interviews so far. Great Job.

 

[QuadDiffuser]

Three of the best in one video; congrats and thanks!

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you for the kind words, gentlemen!

 

[divertiti]

...I began by adding an MScaler to a Qutest. I could tell a wee difference among Qutest filters. Adding HMS was obvious "upgrade" sonically.

Then I swapped in a Dave with the HMS. Big uptick in SQ, but honestly Qutest is very nice, if that's your budget.

I added a DC4 to the Dave and a Denefrips Gaia D2D. So, better juice and no Amanero USB workflow (I did not do the eventual Arc6 upgrade).

I tried Gen1 PGGB against Dave with and without HMS. Initially, I preferred HMS to PGGB, but system was so good, I soon sold HMS and did not upsample. I later tried Gen2 PGGB (my terms not ZB's), which is excellent and very much improved over original version. Excellent.

I tried MSB Premiere for a three week demo and thought, although the SQ signature was different, it was a parallel move of sorts, sonically, so not a good use of money.

However, it stimulated the "what if" mechanism, and I tried a three week demo of the Reference dac. OK, that was a big change (to me). Still had all the detail, but smoother and better flow. That was, after a brief A/B test, only listen to the MSB for three weeks. Then, swap Dave back into play (it was left powered on all that time, BTW). I bought the Reference and loved (love) it, but the DD was rumored to be out there.

So, next step was adding the Ref DD which I really like. Excellent detail and flow. And honestly, part of my thinking is toward the future. What will/can MSB honchos do with the extra processing horsepower of the Digital Director?

Markus, what input method were you using with the Ref dac before the DD? How big was the improvement with the DD and can you describe it a bit more?

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...I have *only* used the ProUSB/ISL input with the MSB dac, and now via the Digital Director. That is, USB converted and delivered via fiber. It was one of the key drivers for choosing MSB over other manufacturers. I'm synchronized with their thinking, if that makes sense.

I think separating power sources from critical components is a good idea, albeit with limitations I'm sure. Per above, I deconstructed the DAVE for that reason (among others).

You get that additional isolation with the DD and fiber, as well as some extra processing power for here/now and hopefully for whatever the future may bring from the industry (PGGB) or the MSB bros.

Regarding the sound delta with DD, I recall it being akin to adding the Taiko DCD power/filtering device as I did earlier this week(posted elsewhere). For me, it doesn't blow your mind and rearrange the sonic furniture if you're already well set-up; it's more subtle, more refined. But very, very nice. Open. Airy. Holographic. Perhaps I would also count a bass-ie "feel" as increased drive/energy.

I think the low-hanging fruit has all been harvested in my room, and I'm working the top of the tree now. So, aside from developing a taste for different fruit and swapping amps, etc., I'm optimizing the tree I have.

I am not so naive or egotistical to think the sound here is unbeatable, but man, it is *very* tasty. Adding products like the MSB Digital Director to my system allows me to grow sonically within the constraints of the physical room/location I have. More juice from the same orange. And if I can get the Ref/DD more tightly integrated with the Taiko Extreme server, eliminating USB altogether...that should be a day for sonic celebration.

 

[Legolas]

There is a ton of good info in this thread!