The Direct to Disc thread

[PeterA]

I just played my copy of "For Duke" for the first time. I had heard so much about this recording and I found it on a recent trip to Michigan in a used record store. Good copies sell for about $100 on Ebay, and the one I found was only $39 so I figured, why not. The cover was badly damaged but the vinyl looked good. I cleaned it using my time consuming four fluid process, and it looked pristine.

Well, Al M. was over this evening and so I played it for him. We were both stunned by the sound quality. I had stumbled upon a MINT copy in a damaged jacket. I had the VTA set for a previous record and it still sounded OK, but I lowered the arm by 1mm and that was all she wrote. The bass came in better, the pace, rhythm and timing all improved, and horns had explosive dynamics, and the sound was YOUHUGE. This may become a new demo disk in my collection.

Now I finally know what all the fuss is about. This was an excellent find.

 

[DaveyF]

Peter, glad that you agree that 'For Duke' is a demo disc. I think many of the D2D's are really good. The Klemmer Disc I posted above is also excellent. Interestingly, I am now listening to a lot of the Music Matters 33rpm Blue Note reissues. IMHO, in some ways they are slightly ( very slightly) better than the D2D's!! A tremendous testimony to RVG's recording prowess back in the day!! Although the M&K LP's may be a tad more "defined" or slightly more resolved, I do not find that the music is presented with more 'gestalt' or overall precision than the Music Matters Blue Note's....the MM Blue Note's are that good!! Now, back to the D2D's and the ones to add to our collections......

 

[jadis]

In cut 2, Mood Indigo, the sax always gives me goosebumps.

 

[jadis]

I got this sealed from a friend of mine. I was not familiar with this recording company so I took a chance and I should say I liked it. There is nothing grossly wrong about the recording, and at times the transients and attack surprised me I had to open my eyes and try to 'see' the instruments.

 

[DaveyF]

Phil,

Thanks for adding that...I had not heard of this LP before. Looks like one to put on the radar.

 

[jadis]

Phil,

Thanks for adding that...I had not heard of this LP before. Looks like one to put on the radar.

Anytime Davey.

 

[ack]

Yes, of course I know about 'For Duke'...but let's add the special M&K Lp's here:

1) For Duke View attachment 25545 Superb on all counts. Music and sound.

I just got a NM copy of For Duke, and the sound just blew my mind! Those trumpets are about to blow a hole through my panels, and everything else is so right; this recording is easily up there along with the best of Reference Recordings. Thanks Davey, and certainly one of the best threads here...

 

[jadis]

Saw this in my D2D section of my shelf. Haven't played it in a long time. But I recall it's a good album or it wouldn't be there anymore.

 

[DaveyF]

They are, I have both, plus Amanda McBroom (though that's a little destroyed by past cartridges, ever since I bought all of them in the 1980s - phenomenal female vocals, BTW)

That's an excellent point about past cartridges! Last night I played several LP's that I had not played for many many years.Included in the batch was an LP by Osibisa ( anyone else like these guys back in the day?) My original UK pressing was very noisy with a definite loss of HF. i think this could very well be due to the old Grado cartridge that i was using back in the day. Too bad, as this is a LP that has potential.

 

[DaveyF]

Couple more...
First up is the well known Dave Grusin LP on Sheffield...this used to get a lot of playing time at audio shows; and in many ways for good reason:

Then IF you like Flamenco guitar ( Carlos Montoya on Crystal Clear D2D)...and no real accompaniment...these two are excellent examples: and
Not my favorites, but certainly worth a listen.

 

[ack]

So I am not entirely convinced For Duke is a Direct-to-Disc LP... reason being that I hear the pre-echo of the start of the next track, in the silent grooves between tracks, for at least one track I just happened to have noticed... not going to tell you which one, see if you can hear it too. Unless what I am hearing is some sort of cue from the drummer. BTW, this has got to be one of the lowest surface-noise LPs I have, if not the lowest.

 

[ack]

ADDENDUM: Second track with pre-echo, this one starting with piano. I am now increasingly unconvinced this is a Direct-To-Disc LP. On the other hand, between other tracks, there is clearly hand and foot activity, making me think it is a live session, but things are not really adding up.

 

[PeterA]

ADDENDUM: Second track with pre-echo, this one starting with piano. I am now increasingly unconvinced this is a Direct-To-Disc LP. On the other hand, between other tracks, there is clearly hand and foot activity, making me think it is a live session, but things are not really adding up.

I've heard it too. Very dynamic recording with excellent horn sounds and my copy is also very quiet.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

So I am not entirely convinced For Duke is a Direct-to-Disc LP... reason being that I hear the pre-echo of the start of the next track, in the silent grooves between tracks, for at least one track I just happened to have noticed... not going to tell you which one, see if you can hear it too. Unless what I am hearing is some sort of cue from the drummer. BTW, this has got to be one of the lowest surface-noise LPs I have, if not the lowest.

Lp's have pre-echo too, but not print thru like tape.....although the phenomena is similar. on Lps it's a matter of a high SPL track next to a quiet passage....as well as the degree of performance and noise floor of the vinyl system. I hear it frequently on many pressings. lower your noise floor and it starts to pop up. mostly it's feint.

I've listened in my room to the DTD pressing of 'For Duke' with Steve McCormick, who was there for the actual DTD recording and is listed as an engineer on the jacket and worked for M & K at the time.

it is really a DTD pressing. Steve also said that they had a tape deck running at the same time as a back up. he once heard the tape of that session and said it's phenomenal.

 

[RBFC]

Forgive me, but can't pre-echo be an artifact from the next groove, depending upon pressing quality and process?

Lee

 

[DaveyF]

Forgive me, but can't pre-echo be an artifact from the next groove, depending upon pressing quality and process?

Lee

Lee, I believe that to be correct.
It is also possible that the groove on ack's particular pressing could be slightly damaged in that area. Remember, a lot of these D2D's were played back in the day on gear that wasn't the greatest. A set up issue with the cartridge or any cartridge wear would show up as groove damage...and be specially noticeable on these very high rez d2D's...with gear that is typically used today.
Most/Many of the D2D's that I own were acquired back in the day when they were new, but unfortunately my cartridge wasn't that great in those days...a Grado. Even though the cartridge was properly set up, the stylus profile wasn't that great. As a result, I hear some minor tracking issues and pops on some of these pressings. ( Plus, I took great care in handling these LP's from day one, just think of the results from others who were far less fastidious!)

 

[jadis]

With regards to the Amanda McBroom Growing Up in Hollywood Town D2D, the local game here long ago would be to count how many triangle bells (left channel) there were on Side 1 Cut 5 'Dusk'. My friends told me there were 13 'tings', but on others (maybe higher resolution and more detailed systems), there were 16. In today's megabucks systems, I imagine there could be 'more'.

 

[ack]

Lee, I believe that to be correct.
It is also possible that the groove on ack's particular pressing could be slightly damaged in that area. Remember, a lot of these D2D's were played back in the day on gear that wasn't the greatest. A set up issue with the cartridge or any cartridge wear would show up as groove damage...and be specially noticeable on these very high rez d2D's...with gear that is typically used today.
Most/Many of the D2D's that I own were acquired back in the day when they were new, but unfortunately my cartridge wasn't that great in those days...a Grado. Even though the cartridge was properly set up, the stylus profile wasn't that great. As a result, I hear some minor tracking issues and pops on some of these pressings. ( Plus, I took great care in handling these LP's from day one, just think of the results from others who were far less fastidious!)

Damage is not what I am hearing... I am hearing the faint initial traces of the track that follows (like the piano notes I mentioned), about 1-2 seconds of it - that's not long enough for a full revolution, so this can't be groove interference??!?? This is what I also hear from some LPs cut from tape, where the tape can be intentionally ahead by a couple of seconds, so that the engineer can react to dynamic passages, if he needs to...

Mike, I saw McCormack's name on it, and I guess it has to be D-to-D

 

[DaveyF]

Damage is not what I am hearing... I am hearing the faint initial traces of the track that follows (like the piano notes I mentioned), about 1-2 seconds of it - that's not long enough for a full revolution, so this can't be groove interference??!?? This is what I also hear from some LPs cut from tape, where the tape can be intentionally ahead by a couple of seconds, so that the engineer can react to dynamic passages, if he needs to...

Mike, I saw McCormack's name on it, and I guess it has to be D-to-D

Ack, it is definitely a D2D. Very interesting that you are hearing the faint initial traces of the track that follows. I must pull out my For Duke copies and see if that is common ( or for that matter a factor at all) with them.
BTW, did you think further on the acquisition of the Magico Q3? I heard a pair today along with a pair of S5's. IMO, the Q3's were more 'refined' and were more accurate in the bass region ...a lot more accurate. I don't know how the S7's sound, but they would have to be really really good to exceed the Q3's.

 

[ack]

I won't be purchasing Q3s, or Q5s or any other Magico yet... as I have mentioned before, yes, the Q are very accurate, but the lack of isolation of the midrange driver is a problem... something they fixed in some S series. And the S7 isn't as accurate as the Q3 or the Q5, and the latter is substantially better by a wide margin, if I may. The vividness of the Q5 or the Q7 driven by the latest Spectral 400RS/30SV is simply arresting; the S7 cannot possibly match either; plus I hate the fact the top section of the S7 is glued to the bottom - why not two different and isolated boxes... Having said that, I see many Q3 owners replace with the S7, and it baffles me - it's a rocking speaker, but accurate??? Not to the same degree. So I am holding out for the newer Q series. Meantime, I am in no hurry. As I write this, I am recording the BSO perform the Saint Saens #3 Organ Symphony, and it's great to hear live low organ pedals... very interesting, in fact, coming out of FM. I have to say once more, this modified Etude tuner has surpassed all expectations time and time again, and it's hard to believe this is a 20+ year old tuner; what a great product.