the Durand Record Weight; love it!

[cjfrbw]

I had an outer ring clamp custom made for my SME 20 in the day. My observation was that it gave a "weightier" performance and smoother dynamics, with fewer turntable specific jaggies.

However, hovering a metal clamp over the turntable every time I changed a record struck me that audio entropy and unpredictable fingers would eventually and inevitably result in a clamp to turntable/arm/cartridge clamp disaster, so I stopped using it out of insecurity and sold it.

As far as clamps and weights are concerned, they are all experiment specific, like turntable mats. In some instances, a cheap felt mat might sound better. In others, custom carbon mats or gel filled rubber might sound better.

The only reason I can think of that an overpriced item is presented as a universal solution, and NEVER makes things sound worse, is a combination of audiophile showcasing, veblens, and anticipated credulousness. These items can only cause frequency reassignment, or damping, or some combination that is unpredictable in outcome for a particular setup. If they are massive, they might cause some mass effect around the spindle and the center of the record as well. It would be refreshing to hear somebody say it made their turntable setup sound like crap, but then, they couldn't sell it again.

Sorry, "What's Best" just does not always compute with "What's Most Expensive and Exclusive". The Durand is really pretty, though.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

I have a story of an actual event that took place last Saturday at my house. This is what was being used:
Nottingham Horizon SE
Rega RB250
Pete Riggle Heavy Counterweight
Pro-ject Puck weight.
Mat is a dense sponge-like material

We cued up the new Sound City LP (RCA 180-gram), secured it with the Pro-ject puck and it was cued down about midway as someone wanted to hear a particular section. Within about 10 seconds it was badly mistracking. Like really, really bad. Make a long story short, we looked at the record and noticed it was "concave" while on the TT with the weight. We removed it and played it back without the weight....problem gone. I have never had this happen before. If I had an outer ring this may not have happened. Or if I had a "clamp" this would not have been an issue, as the tension can be adjusted.

Opinions?

 

[mep]

Maybe we need to differentiate between "what's best" and "what can you get away with charging." Unless someone throws a bunch more evidence on the table to explain how this device could possibly have $1750 worth of parts, labor, overhead, and NRE to justify the retail price of $3500, I'm just not convinced that the clamp is selling for what it should be relative to the factors I just listed. I think the price may have been brainstormed with some well-heeled audiophiles/distributors with the goal of determining "how much do you think we can charge?" Is it really better than the Still Points record clamp? If so, how much? Just a little or $3K worth of better sound?

 

[XV-1]

It's a must for me unless I had vacuum hold down. Edge warp is too prevalent to ignore. It causes inconsistent VTA and correspondingly VTF changes during playback and beats on the suspension more. Flat is where it is at since you want the record coupled completely to the platter. Some suspended design tables may not work as well from a damping perspective depending on the weight of the ring.

Or get a LP Flattener. Works a treat for me after I sold my VPI and no more hassle of the periphery ring. Especially useful with pos US pressings. Had 3 this week that were dished - now flat

Cheers

 

[MylesBAstor]

I had an outer ring clamp custom made for my SME 20 in the day. My observation was that it gave a "weightier" performance and smoother dynamics, with fewer turntable specific jaggies.

However, hovering a metal clamp over the turntable every time I changed a record struck me that audio entropy and unpredictable fingers would eventually and inevitably result in a clamp to turntable/arm/cartridge clamp disaster, so I stopped using it out of insecurity and sold it.

As far as clamps and weights are concerned, they are all experiment specific, like turntable mats. In some instances, a cheap felt mat might sound better. In others, custom carbon mats or gel filled rubber might sound better.

The only reason I can think of that an overpriced item is presented as a universal solution, and NEVER makes things sound worse, is a combination of audiophile showcasing, veblens, and anticipated credulousness. These items can only cause frequency reassignment, or damping, or some combination that is unpredictable in outcome for a particular setup. If they are massive, they might cause some mass effect around the spindle and the center of the record as well. It would be refreshing to hear somebody say it made their turntable setup sound like crap, but then, they couldn't sell it again.

Sorry, "What's Best" just does not always compute with "What's Most Expensive and Exclusive". The Durand is really pretty, though.

I'd say something but know would just jinx myself

 

[FrantzM]

I had an outer ring clamp custom made for my SME 20 in the day. My observation was that it gave a "weightier" performance and smoother dynamics, with fewer turntable specific jaggies.

However, hovering a metal clamp over the turntable every time I changed a record struck me that audio entropy and unpredictable fingers would eventually and inevitably result in a clamp to turntable/arm/cartridge clamp disaster, so I stopped using it out of insecurity and sold it.

As far as clamps and weights are concerned, they are all experiment specific, like turntable mats. In some instances, a cheap felt mat might sound better. In others, custom carbon mats or gel filled rubber might sound better.

The only reason I can think of that an overpriced item is presented as a universal solution, and NEVER makes things sound worse, is a combination of audiophile showcasing, veblens, and anticipated credulousness. These items can only cause frequency reassignment, or damping, or some combination that is unpredictable in outcome for a particular setup. If they are massive, they might cause some mass effect around the spindle and the center of the record as well. It would be refreshing to hear somebody say it made their turntable setup sound like crap, but then, they couldn't sell it again.

Sorry, "What's Best" just does not always compute with "What's Most Expensive and Exclusive". The Durand is really pretty, though.

Maybe we need to differentiate between "what's best" and "what can you get away with charging." Unless someone throws a bunch more evidence on the table to explain how this device could possibly have $1750 worth of parts, labor, overhead, and NRE to justify the retail price of $3500, I'm just not convinced that the clamp is selling for what it should be relative to the factors I just listed. I think the price may have been brainstormed with some well-heeled audiophiles/distributors with the goal of determining "how much do you think we can charge?" Is it really better than the Still Points record clamp? If so, how much? Just a little or $3K worth of better sound?

Hi

I have been reading some posts from this thread on one of my too rare breaks from work (very busy thankfully). I have hesitated several times to interject, I find myself somehow compelled because of these two posts to which I concur. They show restraint but clealry there is between the lines (IMO) a certain level of skepticism, which I do share, mine may be much higher.
I won't say much more, only that it redefines how much one can charge for any Audio accessory and that soon another designer will come up with a new , better and of course more expensive item in this category.

 

[garylkoh]

I don't believe I ever said or inferred the record is slipping because I don't believe that. What I said was the weight forces the record against the platter (hopefully). The question I asked was what resonance(s) are record clamps/weights draining away? You have stated that you believe it's noises/vibrations that are being drained away and not resonances if I read your responses correctly.

It wasn't you, Mark. It was Mike's original post that I read as the record slipping and resonating.

I think that record clamps and weights change the resonances, vibrations and noises on the turntable itself.

Disclaimer: All the turntables I currently own makes it impossible to use a record clamp or weight. The center spindle is removed after the record is placed and before playing.

 

[PeterA]

Record clamps would be the easiest audio devices to do double blind studies on, since nothing changes but the clamp.

The Durand is pretty to look at, and is an excellent solution for audiophiles who think something needs to be outlandishly expensive to work.

As has been pointed out, however, if it "works", then what was wrong with your setup to begin with? Hmm, weighty questions that lead in many directions, perhaps better not to go there.

In one sense, there is something wrong with all of our systems because none of them sounds like the real thing. Does this mean that our systems are broken? I don't think so. Are we not all upgrading or trying to improve things in our systems? In Mike's case, the NVS sounded better than the Dobbin's The Beat. The Anna sounded better than the A90. The Telos better than the Talea II. The Durand Telos Saphire cartridge mounting plate better than the standard mounting plate. Now the Record Weight improves the performance of his table even further. And so it goes. It seems to me that that is why our hobby is often referred to as a journey.

 

[PeterA]

I think that record clamps and weights change the resonances, vibrations and noises on the turntable itself.

Would someone like to comment on or critique the SME "record-clamp/washer/scrolled isodamp-platter-surface" response to this turntable resonance issue? I find that it does provide intimate record/platter contact. And it seems to be conceived as part of a larger system.

I think there may be something to Gary's observation that if the addition of a record weight significantly improves performance, then the weight is improving an issue that was not addressed in the original design, for what ever reason.

 

[jtinn]

Absolutely. That is why I was careful to word my response the way it was worded. My objective was to make sure that WBF readers were not mislead into thinking that the stylus/groove interface causes resonance that needed to be fixed by a record weight. Different turntable designers approach the problem from different directions and solve problems in different order.

It's not just the record-platter interface, but the Durand weight may also address issues caused by bearing noise, cogginess in the motor, belt spring, resonance in the chassis structure, etc. I believe it's the same things being addressed by the Stillpoints puck.

Gary, I could not disagree with you more. I feel it to be exactly opposite of what you state and here is why:

Since the record weight creates a better junction between the record and the platter, this would actually enhance the transmission of any vibration from the player to the record. Therefore, if there was any unwanted vibration information present, such as bearing noise, cogginess in the motor, resonance in the chassis structure, etc., pushing the record down harder into the platter would actually better ensure that that information gets passed to the record and therefore to the cartridge.

Put your ear near a wall and try to hear what is on the other side. Now put your ear directly on the wall and you will find the information on the other side is much easier to hear.

 

[JackD201]

To be on topic, what is Joel's explanation of how his clamp improves the sound?

 

[JackD201]

Never mind here it is from his website.

Based on the same philosophy of natural musical rendition that characterizes our Talea™ and Telos™ tonearms, the Record Weight is unlike any other record weight on the market: it was designed first and foremost to add or subtract nothing to the information on the record, to guarantee that the record is in the best contact with the platter, and eliminate the mechanical resonances transmitted by the turntable. Extensive research led us to devise a five-level barrier of different materials to act as a filter for undesirable vibrations. The combination of hardwood, exotic metal and Teflon for the main assembly, and sapphire for the feet guarantees a drastic reduction of the macro- and micro-vibrations that damage the original signal contained in the grooves.
The Record Weight is the ideal companion for our Telos and Talea tonearms, and will also offer significant improvements with any other tonearm and turntable. It is a true high-end product.

 

[garylkoh]

Sounds like Jonathan disagrees with Joel.....

 

[PeterA]

Sounds like Jonathan disagrees with Joel.....

Perhaps that is why you always saw images of the NVS table without a weight or a clamp. Now, at least the images of Mike's NVS will have the Durand Record Weight in them.

 

[Bruce B]

Sounds like Jonathan disagrees with Joel.....

And I thought Jonathan sells Durand.....

 

[Bruce B]

Perhaps that is why you always saw images of the NVS table without a weight or a clamp.

 

[PeterA]

View attachment 9517

That is a nice photo I think from the website. It's a beautiful table, for sure. Below are some photos of Jtinn, Durand and others showing an LP being played with no weight or clamp. The bottom photo is of Mike's system with the weight on the side not in use. I remember some discussion about owners preferring the sound without any weight on the LP. This seems to agree with what Jtinn is contending that the turntable vibrations are less likely to migrate to the stylus if the LP is not in intimate contact with the platter. This seems like the opposite philosophy of Durand with the new weight and certainly of my SME table with clamp and scrolled isodamp platter surface.

It the end, I think it is just different approaches from different designers. The Durand weight sure is nice looking, as is the NVS table.

 

[cjfrbw]

"To puck, or not to puck, that is the question:
Whether 'tis Nobler in the mind to suffer
The Slings and Arrows of outrageous Resonance,
Or to take Arms against a Sea of vibreous emanations,
And by opposing end them:"

 

[Peter Breuninger]

 

[mep]

Sounds like Jonathan disagrees with Joel.....

Please, tell me it's not so.